Hey folks,

Just joined the forum after perusing everyone's useful information for the past couple of weeks. Hoping someone can give us some advice with our issue.

Our well-loved 72K mi 2008 MINI Clubman (non-S) is apparently very sickly. Symptoms: yellow engine light coming on and off, now steady on (thought it was gas cap at first); red oil pressure light came on at hard stop tonight - oil level was fine, recent oil service (non-dealer) and flush due to sludge; somewhat hesitant at start up; I think I hear a rattle, my better half is not so certain.

From what we were reading here in the forums, we thought we might be having a timing chain issue even though we're non-S. But we're not mechanics, so we brought it to the dealer for diagnostics. $159.99 later, we came back with the following error codes:

2773 misfire; 296D ex cam sensor; 277B misfire; 2777 misfire; 2783 misfire; 287D in actuator movement; 2B56 air mass; 2845 ex actuator movement; 277F misfire

They also reported "severe/multiple engine oil leaks present" and told us that we had to fix the following **BEFORE** they would do further diagnosis:
oil pan gasket $900; valve cover $575; oil filter housing gasket $1470; oil service $150 -- grand total: $3095

They said the car "will not obtain and sustain oil pressure with these leaks to perform a complete/proper diagnosis." In other words, they won't look at the timing chain until the leaks are fixed. This seems fishy to me, and for what it's worth, we've never seen ANY oil under the car. If it's so severe, you would think we would have? (but again, not a mechanic)

Additionally, they recommended spark plug replacement for $380 (even though we changed them about 2 months ago at our trusted independent mechanic). So we just bought the plugs for $128 and will replace them.

Now we are at a crossroads, trying to figure out what to do. Is the price for the service quoted reasonable or is it over-inflated NYC-area pricing? Is the car a hopeless case? (And I should return the spark plugs then??) If we fix the oil issues and then come up with timing chain issues, that's more $$ down the drain. Not sure it's worth it anymore, but we really love this car. We also understand that this car is best taken care of by the dealer, but we just don't have the wallet power for that these days. Sigh.

Side note: considering all its issues, they gave us a trade-in value of $3K. Ouch.

Any words of wisdom or comfort for our (potential) loss would be appreciated.

 

Hi , maybe take it to another dealer and say nothing about the first one . It would be worth it just to know .

 

This is totally untrue. There are lots of good independent shops that are knowledgable in MINI. For links check out: http://soopercooperinfo.com

Why don't you take it to your trusted mechanic that you mention in your post?

Oh, and return the spark plugs.

 

Those prices are WAY too high.

Way.. too way high.

First, low oil pressure issues are *not* caused by external leaks. External leaks from the oil pan/valve-cover are not pressure areas. The only area that would be leaking oil under pressure is the oil filter housing, and when they leak - THEY LEAK - I mean oil dripping or flowing out of the gasket if that is to drop oil pressure.

It sounds like the sludge issue has gunked up the variable cam system, which in turn has caused the other codes to follow along since the car is not running right.

The first steps in low oil pressure is a fresh oil change and filter (of course after checking the oil). I guess they did this, the second step is to hook up a simple pressure gauge and measure pressure, if its low - its often sludge on the oil pickup, if pressure is low you will hear knocks and rattles from within the engine.

Don't bother with the plugs. They won't help anything, if they are two months old - that's your clue to get the heck out of that shop.

I'm not a fan of oil-flushes at all, they can cause more harm than good... but it sounds like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The oil leaks should have nothing to do with the timing chain issue (in terms of recalls), if its a recall/service campaign they must do the work no matter what other issues are present - they cannot deny this.

(did you get a letter?)

 

We actually did take it to them, and they were the first ones to tell us that fault codes indicated timing issues. They recommended we take it to the dealer to get it looked at further.

This isn't to say that we can't take it back to them for a second opinion regarding all of the supposed severe oil leaks.

 

Thanks so much for your feedback, Dan. I wanted to curl up into a ball and cry when I heard their estimate. The SA actually told me I should probably just unload the car and get a new one. (A new Honda? Maybe... lol)

What do you think might be causing the misfires if it's not the plugs? (One of my family members is ASE-certified and works as a mechanic for a luxury brand and said that his BMW - not who he works for, haha - is very touchy with non-factory plugs so suggested I put factory ones back into the MINI.)

We have a non-S Clubman so we did not get a letter. They ran the VIN and said there were no open campaigns on the vehicle. The SA originally said if it were a timing chain issue, they might be able to get corporate to do it on a good will basis, but it might be tough considering the car is over 70K.

What about the issue of factory vs. non-factory filter? Should that be a part we go factory on? Or should it not matter?

 

Well, I am also an ASE master tech. And he's right. When it comes to cars running crummy, most folks (self included) are bigger fans of running what the car came with in terms of plugs. Could non OE plugs be an issue.. perhaps.. but I think the larger issue with the misfires would be the cam timing issue.

The cam timing issue can be a sludge or low oil pressure issue.. or it could be severe chain slack (I'm not super well versed on the Non-S engines, so I can't say what's common.. in terms of failures..).

It would take your mechanic and have him take a look at the plugs. It would take all of 5 minutes to do so. And a quick look could tell if they are the source of the fault.

I know the oil pan is not a big deal (cost wise, parts and labor).. and the valve cover can be $$ mainly because the stupid gasket is part of the cover (I think..).

Let me look at my estimator program and work up a realistic quote in terms of labor.

 

Here's what I came up with.

The only item I could not find was the gasket for the oil filter housing.

But the labor times are accurate. Prices are pretty much what a dealer might charge in terms of parts prices. I put in a flat rate labor time of $100/hour.

 

Wow! Thanks for that. It just confirmed our gut instinct that we were getting scammed. I will definitely take it around the corner to my mechanic, tell them what we were told, and see what they say/find.

I'm almost ready to drive down to Philly!

 

I'm honored.

If you did, I would say to take it to Helix, they are a local Mini shop and I'm sure they would not steer you wrong.

 

In my opinion:
Clearly it is a valve timing issue based on the codes you've shown. I believe the N-12 engine is a Dual Vanos valve system. Meaning both the intake cam and the exhaust cam can be advanced and retarded independently. Here's what I think had happened to your engine based on the codes. Something has happened to the control system of the cams to put them in default. When in default the intake cam fully advances and the exhaust cam fully retards. What this creates is a large overlap cycle when both the intake valves and exhaust valves are open. This allows combustion gases to dilute the intake mixture in the cylinders to the point of incomplete combustion as indicated by your codes. Changing the spark plugs is akin to killing the messenger. The plugs can't light a mixture that is oxygen starved due to exhaust pollution.

This may be all Greek to you, so take my post to a reputable MINI dealer and see if he agrees with me.

I don't work for MINI USA or any MINI dealer. I do have 3 MINI's 2011 Clubman, 2012 Clubman, and a 2013 JCW Hardtop, all with the N-18 engines. I have bothered to research all I can about my MINI's to understand how they work. I'm an old school GM mechanic from the 60's, before computers, that based our diagnosis on the premise that if you knew how something worked, you could fix it when it didn't!

Hope this may be of some help to you.