R55 :: Clubman Talk (2008+) Discussions revolving around the extended wheelbase Clubman (R55) model.

R55 Double clutching: got it done at last!

Old Jun 13, 2009 | 10:21 AM
  #1  
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Double clutching: got it done at last!

It's been a nerve-wracking three weeks but I've finally got it and wow does it help! Everyone with a standard Clubbie or even another MINI could benefit from it. The real pain of double clutching is trying to find a place to practice. Where I live, there are no wide open parking lots to practice on. I had to try a seldom used strip of road in my neighborhood but it's less than 1,000 feet long before it hits the main road. I had to teach myself how to do it so only try it if you're daring. I stalled a few times and almost over revved the engine more times than I can count but it's smooth sailing once you get the hang of it. Oh, and it's fun!!
If you have no idea how to do it, try looking up some videos on Youtube. You could also watch videos of Walter Rorhl. His footwork is amazing. Again, find a BIG open stretch of land to practice on. You don't want to risk crashing your poor MINI into anything!
 
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Old Jun 13, 2009 | 12:14 PM
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And completely, totally unnecessary with modern transmissions unless you're in competition conditions, and even then I don't think anyone does it anymore. The reason they do it with race transmissions are because of straight cut gears, which street trannys don't have....

So, why did you learn to do it?
 
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Old Jun 13, 2009 | 12:59 PM
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Reasons to double-clutch:
smoother shifting, minimal wear on the transmission synchros. Once the synchros are worn, you're looking at a complete trans rebuild (or you need to be really good at matching revs to shift into gear).
 
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Old Jun 13, 2009 | 01:04 PM
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Is this fast and the furious or something?
 
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Old Jun 13, 2009 | 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by howie289
Reasons to double-clutch:
smoother shifting, minimal wear on the transmission synchros. Once the synchros are worn, you're looking at a complete trans rebuild (or you need to be really good at matching revs to shift into gear).
I call total B.S. on any claims of benefit for double clutching a modern manual transmission. As long as you learn to heel-toe downshift during braking for performance oriented driving there's no reason to worry about learning to double-clutch. The effort to learn it can be put to much better and more practical use. I just came home from a day of driving a HPDE at the track. I can guarantee you not a single person there double-clutches for any reason.

Now if you go pick up a 1953 Austin Healy for yourself, you might be well served learning to double clutch.
 
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Old Jun 13, 2009 | 06:16 PM
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+1^
 
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Old Jun 13, 2009 | 07:56 PM
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Can you please explain double-clutching for a car for me?

That's how you learn to drive a truck before you master driving w/o the clutch.

How does double-clutching help in a car?
 
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Old Jun 13, 2009 | 08:24 PM
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Double clutching.. is.. for non synchro transmissions.. for matching gear speeds in between shifts.. IE: From first to second.. depress clutch... out of first to neutral.. clutch out.. clutch back in.. neutral to second... clutch out..
This allows the gears to match speeds.. so they are operating at the same speed.. less grindage.. it doesn't necessarily help in a car, because you have the synchros..
So sayethy wickipedia! The below is copied and pasted from that site:

Before the introduction of transmission synchronizers (in the 1920s) and helical cut gears, double clutching was a technique required to prevent damage to an automobile's gear system. Due to the difficulty and most often unnecessary redundancy involved in learning the technique, coupled with the advent of synchronized gearing systems, it has largely fallen into disuse. However, drivers of large trucks often use the double clutching technique when unable to keep the transmission unloaded during shifting, as large vehicles are usually equipped with older, simpler and more durable unsynchronized gearboxes.

Are you sure.. your not confusing double clutch with heeltoe shifting..
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 05:55 AM
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Not at all necessary with modern cars. Syncros will not wear out for at least 100 or 150,000 miles under normal conditions...
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ludikrisspeed
Not at all necessary with modern cars. Syncros will not wear out for at least 100 or 150,000 miles under normal conditions...
And truly probably much longer than that. My old Nissan Pathfinder had over 400,000 miles on it before any trany work needed to be done. Never double clutched that one.
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 07:34 AM
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I agree with the comments about the lack of any need for double clutching on a modern synchronized transmission, but there is a real irony folks are overlooking. The only threat to a synchro is shifting too fast ("beating" the synchros) or failing to use enough clutch.To prevent beating the synchros, all you do is shift a little slower to allow the synchros to do their job (i.e.: synchronize the gear to the input shaft). Double clutching takes twice as long as normal clutching, so you've lost the only advantage on a synchronized tranny.BTW, I have a Class A license and the method is fun to master on a large truck. I would also expect you are accelerating the wear on the throwout bearing, slave cylinder, and pivot fork with this practice. HTHsomeguyfromMaryland
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 08:54 AM
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But none of this means one should not "heel-toe" to bring the engine speed up when downshifting, right? That's still a good thing to do.
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 09:55 AM
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I've tried it a few times on the highway. It had nothing to do with trying to make a smoother shift but to increase my acceleration when trying to show a sports car next to me what this R55 can do
I'd drop it from 6th to neutral, give it a quick rev and drop it in to 4th. The car would pull away so strong it will give me some torque street. I thought the idea behind double clutching was to help reduce the engine braking when you drop to a lower gear? I'll have to try the same thing without double clutching and see if tranny syn eliminates the engine breaking.

I had an 82 Rabbit Diesel 4 speed in highschool and would have to double clutch it all the time to try and help me maintain speed up a highway.
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 10:36 AM
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You're driving a modern Mini

I assume you have had fun doing this for three weeks, but really, you're not driving a 62 Mini Cooper. You have a modern Mini with a very modern six speed box, and double clutching is not needed, period.
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidJS
But none of this means one should not "heel-toe" to bring the engine speed up when downshifting, right? That's still a good thing to do.
Just wanted to say that Heel to Toe is often confused with double clutch but they are not the same thing.
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 11:47 AM
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hahahahah. post vids. Its not a semi. There is no way using your clutch twice as much can be better on it
 
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Old Jun 14, 2009 | 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by geoffv
...
I'd drop it from 6th to neutral, give it a quick rev and drop it in to 4th. The car would pull away so strong it will give me some torque street. I thought the idea behind double clutching was to help reduce the engine braking when you drop to a lower gear? I'll have to try the same thing without double clutching and see if tranny syn eliminates the engine breaking...
It really sounds like you are confusing double clutching with rev matching. The former is not necessary, but the latter should be done, especially when you are pushing performance. If you downshift without rev-matching (i.e. by blipping the throttle when the clutch depressed) you can upset the car and make it vulnerable to losing control.
 
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Old Jun 15, 2009 | 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RaceTripper
It really sounds like you are confusing double clutching with rev matching. The former is not necessary, but the latter should be done, especially when you are pushing performance. If you downshift without rev-matching (i.e. by blipping the throttle when the clutch depressed) you can upset the car and make it vulnerable to losing control.
Correct, this is just pure performance and trying to match the revs. There is no way I'm double clutching up in gears. No need for that.
 
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Old Jun 15, 2009 | 06:16 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by geoffv
Correct, this is just pure performance and trying to match the revs. There is no way I'm double clutching up in gears. No need for that.
Nor down either. Just rev match when you press the clutch for a downshift. You don't have to double-clutch ever.
 
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Old Jun 15, 2009 | 06:56 AM
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In a fast revving engine like the MINI, one missed shift and the cost of synchros will be pocket change.

As for saving synchro wear, what about the fact that you are pumping the clutch twice for every shift? Those synchros are tougher than the clutch is, as was pointed out by someguyfromMD

I have been driving for 46 years and have owned everything from a VW Bug to a BMW M5 with manual synchro trannys have never heard any advantage to double clutching in any situation that you would encounter on the street.
 
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Old Jun 15, 2009 | 01:49 PM
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To the OP. Learn how to heel toe down shift. It's more fun and has more benefits then double clutching. Practice it good enough and it'll come to you instinctively.
 
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Old Jul 17, 2010 | 10:26 AM
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Service Dept. says double clutching is necessary???

sometimes i have trouble getting the gears into reverse. when i brought this up at the service department my advisor says that it was common knowledge that it is necessary to double clutch when putting the car into reverse. i did not look into it further at the time but everything i see online says that i really should not have to do this. how i seem to have a clutch release problem..chirping when i start to depress the clutch. was this a bunch of baloney? what gives? any advice would be appreciated.
 
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Old Jul 17, 2010 | 10:38 AM
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I double clutch only when I'm downshifting and going into reverse. I was taught that it just creates a cleaner engagement and you'll have less issues with wearing out your transmission parts. I agree that it is probably unecessary with today's transmissions, on upshifts especially because the engine slows down slightly between shifts anyways, but I like to double clutch on downshifts because it gives me time to rev match.
 
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Old Jul 17, 2010 | 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Cpokorney
sometimes i have trouble getting the gears into reverse. when i brought this up at the service department my advisor says that it was common knowledge that it is necessary to double clutch when putting the car into reverse. i did not look into it further at the time but everything i see online says that i really should not have to do this. how i seem to have a clutch release problem..chirping when i start to depress the clutch. was this a bunch of baloney? what gives? any advice would be appreciated.
He's either a complete idiot, incompetent, or both. It's a bunch of complete hooey. Anyone that tells you you need to or should double-clutch doesn't know what they are talking about, unless they believe your transmission was made in 1950.
 
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Old Jul 17, 2010 | 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by slinger688
Just wanted to say that Heel to Toe is often confused with double clutch but they are not the same thing.

+1
 
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