Hey Everyone! I'm a long-time lurker, first time poster!

I'm planning on replacing my less-than efficient Subaru Outback with a Mini Cooper S Clubman. I absolutely love it. I've driven two of them now and have fallen in love with this vehicle. I was planning on ordering one until my (semi) local dealer called me saying they got one in stock with the options I want (convenience, sport, premium, cold weather, etc).

The catch is, it's pre-owned with 700 miles on it. Turns out the owner bought it, and a few hundred miles later the check engine light came on, and the buyer got cold feet and decided to take it back. They took a loss on it, and left it to be. In the meantime, the dealer checked it out and it turns out it was a VANOS valve timing sensor that failed and caused the check engine light. It was fixed, and the car seems to drive fantastically. I had quite a lot of fun test driving it last weekend

As fishy as that story is, that's the story the dealer chose to tell me. It doesn't seem too far fetched. The problem is, the dealer says that Kelley Blue Book claims that any vehicle with under 2,000 miles is considered new, so they want to get full price for it! New or not, it's still pre-owned, so I don't feel comfortable paying full price for this vehicle. I have a meeting with the sales manager later this week regarding the price of this vehicle. Hopefully I can talk him down.

Anyway, what's your take on this situation? It seems a little early for a VANOS sensor to fail... is this a symptom of a lemon? Should I watch out? I was ready to buy it last week but the dealer refused to sell it to me, as it's the last one on the lot. They will not get rid of it until they get another one in stock, which is supposed to happen this week.

Let me know what you think about this situation, and if I should even bother with this car anymore. If I absolutely have to, I will special order one, but I'd rather not wait the 8+ weeks if I don't have to.

 

If you can afford the mental wait, consider waiting and order EXACTLY what you want. Find out what when an ordered Clubman would be built. Move quickly.
The dealer story is always going to be that something minor happened.
A car isn't NEW if someone else owned it and had it titled. Then again, only you will know it wasn't completely new. Sleep on it.

 

You are one of the lucky ones, you've gotten to drive one before you buy. I ordered mine in March (site unseen) and have yet to drive one. When I pick mine up next month (June) it will be the first Clubman I've seen.

 

I wouldn't pay MSRP (or whatever they claim is full price) for it if that is what they are asking. Drive to the bay area and pick up a new one down there. You'll pay the same price for it.

 

Even if it's true (which is suspect), why should the Kelley Blue Book be the authority on the definition of a "new" car. Common sense to me says it's used.

Who took a loss on it? If it was the buyer who turned it in, the dealer is making a tidy profit on a used car by selling it at MSRP.

If it was the dealer who "took the loss," the story is really squishy - being able to turn a car back to the dealer because a check engine light of unknown cause came on at 700 miles.

The whole thing sounds fishy to me. My thought is: The dealer's pretty sure it's got a "live one." Don't let the fact you love the car cloud your good judgment.

 

Get a copy of the service history of the car (Any MINI dealer can provided to you with the VIN serial number) and find out exactly why the check engine light came on.

Find out the facts first before making a decision. You could well be buying a turkey. Buyer beware.

 

Get a service history, test drive the car, push the "loss" on the dealer and see what they do. P&W Mini of Pittsburgh gives $500.00 off a new car no matter what, great customer service, free floor mats and stripes if you please and a heck of a detailing before the car is delivered as new. I am fishy about the story 2 and the whole "Vanos" story sounds fishy. Why would you trade it in for such a small problem. Look up blue book trade in value, offer 1k above that and tell them to have a nice day. Also, P&W will let you order a car with NO MONEY DOWN and they do not even hold you to buying the car if something comes up in the mean time and you decide it was not for you or you find another car. GET EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT AND ORDER THE CAR OR YOU WILL NOT BE SATISFIED!

 

sounds like its true. I think some of the VANOS solenoids came out faulty from the factory. Mine threw a Check Engine light with 10 miles on the clock, then it dissapeared and it came back at 200 miles. Took it to the dealer and they replaced the "Exhaust Vanos Solenoid" ... rides much better now and hope the light stays off.
Not exactly sure what the VANOS solenoid is, but it sounds like a bad batch from the factory. Mine is a non-S

 

I wanted to trade my manual Clubman for an automatic when it had less than 1,000 miles on it. Both MINI of Peabody and Inskip MINI wanted to give me $3,000 less than I paid for trade. So they would have made $3,000 if they re-sold my car for MSRP, and they would have made $2,500 profit on the new car I would have bought. A total of $5,500!

Dealers make me sick. Don't pay a new car price for a used car. If they're not willing to come down on the price or throw some decent accessories in at no charge, then just buy new.

 

1st... If the story is true... Then OK

However... It is a used car. If the car was "punched" and titled then your title will NOT SAY NEW when you purchase the car. If you finance it the bank will give you USED rates and if you may not be able to get "replacement" value insurance from you insurance company if they offer it as most will only have it for NEW cars.

Yes a test-drive car, not punched under 2000 miles may be concidered new by KBB. But the moment it's "punched", yes that is the technical term, the warranty meter starts counting and the moment it's titled the legal status of the vehicle changes.

I don't begrudge the dealer for trying to make money, but to do it un-ethically by telling you KBB conciders it new is wrong.

I would ask for 3k off otherwise I would goto another dealer and order a new one. Trust me you will not spend that much more money on your old car in gas while you wait for delivery, even if you drive 1000's of miles, a subaru outback doesn't get that terrible mileage vs a clubman.

 

It's the original buyer that took the loss on it, because obviously the dealer was not going to buy back the vehicle for full price. I figure, if the dealer wouldn't buy it back from the original dealer for full price, why should I pay full price? As far as I can tell, the dealer already made a profit on the original sale of the vehicle, so there's no reason to charge me MSRP. Like I said, we'll see what the sales manager has to say about it.

I have a copy of the sticker with the VIN number on it. I looked it up on CARFAX and there really wasn't much on there. The only record they could find was the one about it coming through US Customs from England. Odd.

I'm less concerned about the price than I am about potentially buying a lemon. They did assure me that if I come back consistently with issues, they will buy back the car for exactly what I paid. I need to clarify this before I make any sort of decision.

The other part that concerns me about buying a "pre-owned" vehicle is that I don't know how they treated the engine. Who knows if they went through the proper break-in period procedure.

It's funny because if they were so interested in selling me the car, you'd think they would've sold it to me last Sunday when I went in with checkbook in hand. Go figure!

My experience with MINI Dealerships so far is that they simply don't really care weather or not they sell vehicles. Apparently they are selling well enough so that they don't have to bother being an attentive, honest, good salesperson. I think it's insane that everyone is marking up over MSRP in the first place! When I bought my Subaru, I paid almost 4,000 under MSRP. Hell, even when I bought my BMW wagon I paid a little over 2,500 below MSRP.

I'll keep everyone updated as my contact with the dealer continues.

 

Sorry you've been having negative experiences, but believe me - if you've read the various threads on here - not everyone pays over MSRP at all. I never have, nor have many of the MINI buyers out there. You just can't compare buying a Subaru with a MINI. MINI sales have been extremely good for years and they've just continued their trajectory - it's all been in the news.

Since this doesn't seem to be working to your advantage, and you've felt bad vibes from this place (and your understandable concerns about buying this particular car) - go seek and ye shall find a better one with attentive and professional salespeople, as the majority of MINI owners have. Not meaning to come off negative, but it isn't fair to assume that all dealerships are bad news.

 

That story is full of crap. Who returns a car because of a check engine light, particularly a MINI in which owners fall in love with the car? I also doubt that the dealer gave the previous owner a full refund. They most likely gave him far less than he paid, so the dealer is trying to earn a major profit TWICE on this vehicle.

Ask yourself, is this the kind of dealership that I want taking my money, regardless of the terms. Sounds like they have little regard for their clients.

 

Why would you believe this, they didn't do it for the last guy. Sounds like your dealer likes to talk out of both sides of his mouth. Call ******** and if you don't get a straight logical answer take your money to another dealer. MINIs are great, but are they worth throwing money away? That's what women are for!

 

Well supposedly the last owner simply got cold feet about the whole deal. She didn't have consistent issues, she only had one issue that was resolved, but she didn't feel comfortable about the purchase from the start and decided to can it.

I'm not entirely convinced that what they are telling me is BS, but what I am convinced of is that they are asking far too much for the vehicle. I'm interested in buying the car, but not if they're going to make a premium off of me for a used vehicle. Like it's been said before, 700 miles or 10,000 miles, it's still a pre-owned car. Full price should not be paid.

It's unfortunate that things are not going 100% smoothly with this dealer. I bought a BMW from the BMW side of this dealer not too long ago and had a perfect buying experience. In addition, I've taken BMWs for service there for years and it's all been 100% positive.

I'm working with three different people; two MOTORING Advisers and a Sales Manager. The Sales Manager so far has been great, as is the second MOTORING advisor I talked to. But I do kinda feel like one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing in this situation. Just the fact that I came all the way down to the dealership to buy the car, and THEN found out that they wouldn't sell it to me yet anyway just goes to prove my point.

I'm not entirely discouraged yet, but understandably cautious. As you know, this is a huge sum of money and I want to make the right choice. If they can give me a good deal on this car and I can get it now, then I'll go for it. But the deal has to be good enough to outweigh the benefits of waiting 8+ weeks for an ordered one.

I've done some reading regarding this VANOS solenoid issue, and it seems the general consensus (on ALL BMWs) is that from time to time they do come faulty from the factory. It's a minor issue and is easily fixed. So my fears about that are officially alleviated.

I'll keep everyone updated as this situation progresses!

 

Regardless of whether the car is or isn't a lemon - the dealer should go p*** up a rope for trying to charge you full MSRP for a used car. DON'T DO IT.

Start calling around to other dealers and find the one w/the smallest wait time and buy it from there. The dealers might think they're in the driving seat right now but you always have the choice to go to another dealership and seize the initiative that way.

I wish I'd had the presence of mind to order from another dealer as my wait was/(is still) quite lengthy from my local dealer.

 

Good luck, glad you feel confident about that particular issue, and I hope it can work out to your advantage!

Just an aside - you're working with two MAs and the sales manager, all at the same place, or did I misread?

 

That's right. I worked with an MA the first time I went down to test drive the car in the very early stages of my decision making, about 2 months ago. I wasn't very fond of him, but he was knowledgeable and friendly I suppose. Oddly enough though, he never called back after that day.

Then one day I was perusing the dealership's website and noticed they had gotten a couple new Clubmans in stock, so I sent in a web inquiry and got assigned to a second MA, who so far has been very good. Unfortunately both the Clubmans on the website had already been sold, but he notified me that they had this pre-owned one in stock. So when I went down to test drive the pre-owned vehicle, I dealt with the second MA.

Then when I was about the purchase the car, the sales manager came out and told me that it was not for sale until they get another Clubman in stock, as this is their last one on the lot.

I did talk to the first MA about the issue, and he's the one that told me about the Vanos issue, and referenced KBB. He claims he has no authority to adjust the price on the pre-owned vehicle, and that the sales manager would have to take care of that. Unfortunately he was not in the office yesterday, but I believe he is today, so I will be giving him a call.

I apologize for my breathy posts, there's a lot to say about this issue! I just want to be done and drive away from it with a smile on my face in my new Clubman S!

 

I see, and that all makes sense about the sales manager, etc. It's a complicated situation.

Hope you get somewhere positive today, and please let us know the upshot!

 

I noticed too that the dealership websites are not accurate as far as inventory. I am not sure who updates them. It could be that MINI USA is in charge ... as even my custom ordered MC showed up on my dealers site as they recieved it. I think no matter what gets sent to the dealership shows up online. Presold or not ...

Back to your issue ... I would walk away from the pre-owned deal at that price. It seems that you have remorse already. Who knows what they did to the previous owner to leave a sour taste in his/her mouth. I know there are not many dealership choices in CA, and all the ones I hear about seem problematic, but you are better off ordering new and waiting or do a mass search nationwide and have it shipped to you.

And thanks for looking into the VANOS issue, made me feel better

 

Any MINI dealer service dept can pull out a service history on the car from the central database. All that you need to provide is the serial number.

It seems to me this car was bought back by MINIUSA. Manufacturers often times settle "out of court" and out of "lemon law or arbitration" in order to avoid having the vehicles marked as lemon or buybacks in the permanent title record.

Be careful. Dealers will lie to you to get a sale. Some people have no morals and don't care. If you still decide to go for this car, MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS PUT IN WRITING BEFORE YOU SIGN THE DOTTED LINE.

The key here is for you to find out exactly what happened to this car and why the dealer and/or manufacturer took it back from the customer's hands.

Dealers, rarely, if ever, will take back a car after all paper work and monies have been exchanged solely on a case of "cold feet".

Don't ever think for a minute that since you are dealing with a MINI dealer they are not going to lie to you. People lie and in the car business this happens day in and day out unfortunately.

Proceed with caution and if something doesn't jive, smells or looks right, walk away immediately.

 

There is too much uncertainity here for me: will it be titled as new or used, are you financing - what is impact there, how did the original owner drive it.

And it could all be avoided by ordering a new one - I would rather spend 6-8 weeks waiting for a car then worrying that the check engine light will come back on.

 

This is correct. Once the dealer receives a car, special ordered for a customer or for stock, it shows up on their inventory list.

 

Have you tried to contact the original owner for details to compare with the dealer's story about the car?

 

I have not. I'm not sure how I'd go about getting their information. I figure that's something the dealer would keep confidential?