The time has come to bring some common sense, reason, knowledge, and a calm rational voice to a subject that keeps coming up on these forums and then going down in an emotional, flaming, verbal, pushing and shoving match. The subject is that of the quality of the MINI. A number of posters have expressed concern over the perceived large number of defects that owners on this forum have encountered. Since we are all drawn to these forums on account of a fondness for the MINI, I’d like to try and bury this once and for all, in a friendly way.

First, this is going to be long. If you’re not interested, don’t bother reading on. If you are and don’t have the time, come back to it later. If you have the time, grab a cup of coffee or a beer and read on.

Second, how am I qualified to speak to this subject? Am I a MINI owner? No, not yet. I was at the dealer yesterday following up, and my S will be ordered the end of this month for delivery in early June. But… I have owned a wide variety of vehicles, including several BMWs, a 150mph Ford Fiesta, a Toyota PU with a competition grade audio system, etc. I also have a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I have spent the last eight years designing and building multi-million dollar capital equipment for the semiconductor and biotechnology industries, for which I have three US patents and about a dozen applications in process (five years to get a patent in my field). I started “wrenching” for pay at thirteen and did it for eighteen years. And I have a life-long passion for anything with wheels.

Now here we go….

ABOUT QUALITY

The MINI has problems. When looked at, not one by one, but as a whole group, all cars have problems. Some more, some less; but to my knowledge no auto maker has produced a line of perfect, flawless cars. The modern automobile is a complex system of mechanical, electrical, and electronic pieces, and is truly a marvel. If I had to design my industrial equipment to match the complexity and reliability of even an average automobile, at the price the typical car costs today, I would be standing in line for food stamps. High production volumes make sophistication affordable, but also make defects a statistical reality.

I have followed the development of the new MINI from the first rumors in the press, and I can tell you that BMW put an enormous effort into designing this car. In fact the MINI almost never was. BMW spent so much on its development that, just prior to going into production, it was predicted that they would not be able to recoup the investment in their usual eight-year production run, and the whole project was nearly scrapped. Word was that internal passion for the car, at BMW's highest levels, got the car produced. And the exceptional worldwide acceptance and demand has probably overturned the predicted loss. Certainly more effort and expense went into the development of this car than any of its contemporaries, and I believe it represents by far and away the greatest combination of quality, performance, features, and safety of any car near its price point. And before you say it, I am putting my money where my mouth is. Of the many cars I’ve owned, this will be the first brand new car. Buying a new car from the dealer, at MSRP no less, goes against my nature and my entire automotive history. But I think this car represents a good value, and it’s the first new car to truly excite me in decades.

The best measure for the overall quality of a car is probably some JD Power survey/rating thing or another; though I don’t know that I put a lot of stock in those either. Based on the record of BMWs past and present, my guess is that the MINI will come out somewhere a little above average in initial quality; the top spots on those lists being reserved for the Lexus’s and such; which are fabulous cars, but lack the excitement of the Ultimate Driving Machine, or its baby brother. More important to me than making the top of someone’s “initial quality” list, is the question; When and if I do have a problem, is MINI going to stand behind the product and take care of it/me? The tone of the posts on these forums would conclusively indicate yes. There are few, if no posts to indicate to the contrary.

Another common comment is that this is a "first year" car and the old adage is quoted; "Never buy a car when it first comes out 'cause the bugs haven't been worked out." I'm not sure that saying applies anymore with the rapid pace of technology today, but regardless, it is not a first year car. The new MINI has been on American soil for about a year now. It was on the roads in Europe a year before it got here. So it is now starting its third year of production. If you go down and put a deposit on an S today, you may likely be looking at a 2004 model by the time you take possession. Many of the initial bugs have been worked out and MINI continues to make the car better and better.

ABOUT INFORMATION

Forums like these provide a unique opportunity to disseminate and gather information, but that information has to be administered properly. Reading the ten, twenty, one-hundred, or whatever number of posts here regarding problems and concluding that the MINI has poor quality is akin to standing next to the complaint window at the local department store, listening to the line of ten people complain and concluding the department store has terrible service and products; ignoring the thousands of people who pass quietly in and out of the front doors, satisfied with their purchases. For every one defect or problem you read about here, there are literally thousands of MINIs out there on the road, logging mile after mile, trouble free.

To emphasize the importance of information, consider the Hyundai Accent. How many defects have you read about with this car? I’ve never read of one complaint. Should I conclude that it has good quality? Should I rush out and buy one? Of course not; I have not looked at all the information in a discerning way. I’ve also never read anything good about it either. I’ve never read anything about it. In fact, I didn’t know what a Hyundai Accent was until I clicked on cars.com a moment ago and randomly picked a two-door compact. Information must be gathered, assessed, and used in a complete and balanced way.

To me, these forums and the information they disseminate are of incalculable value; a value that adds to the overall value of the car and the ownership experience. Not only is it a place to share my passion for this car, it is a wealth of knowledge and experience. When the inevitable odd defect does appear, these forums will get the word out to owners who can respond in a proactive manner. For instance, when I get my S, I’ll know that I should keep an eye on the coolant bottle to prevent what can be a simple warranty replacement from becoming a big roadside meltdown. A lot of Hyundai Accents might be dead on the side of the road, over-heated with blown head gaskets, before someone realized that a lot of coolant bottles were failing. Further, if a dealer does resist taking care of a problem, these forums will arm me with the information and influence to get the service I want and deserve. (Please note: I’m not picking on Hyundai particularly. They may be very good cars for all I know. I just randomly picked something to make a point. Hyundai, please don’t send your lawyers after me.)

After considering all of this, all that can be found on these forums, all that can be found in the press, it comes down to a personal decision we all must make or have made. For those that do decide to buy a MINI, I am convinced they will be getting a great car and a great value. Some will have a defect or two, a rare few will have more or major defects (it’s a statistical certainty), but the vast majority, many thousands of cars will provide their owners with years of reliable service. I’ve made my decision.

Told you this would be long. While I wish this could be “The Final Word” on this subject. I’m sure it won’t, but I had to try. Maybe next I’ll tackle the MC versus MCS conflict…..”Can’t we all just get along?”

Cheers to all,

James

 

Mister_S -

Seriously good job! P.S.- You are going to love your MCS when it arrives. :smile:

 

Mister S-

I hope a short "atta boy" does your post justice, well stated, well written. I labored over my MCS decision and came up with a similar net conclusion. I took delivery on 2/22, and am glad I did, I hope you feel similarly. BRG, by the way, will look great. Had I been able to get an Emerald interior (similar to Lapis on the MCS), I would have chosen BRG as well.

I'm looking forward to more throughtfule posts from you in the future.

Ravenwhyte

 

>>I'm looking forward to more throughtfule posts from you in the future.

This could also be interpreted to read:

"I'm looking forward to more thoughtful posts from you in the future."

RW

 

Morn'n

I read it all.... & it was indeed long....:smile:, and interesting to read.

The MINI is a $20-$25K vehicle...and IMHO a true representation of the quality of said price range.

Short & sweet :smile:

Peace,
D

 

I think the post should have been titled "The Final 1,477 Words."

_________________
http://www.axisofjustice.org

 

::applause::

well done!

 

Very well put... I agree. My Mini had not failed me yet. Wacked 2 big potholes and got me home safely both times. I am convinced...

My ford Taurus would have had 2 flats by now.....lol

 

Hello Mr. S
Very well said indeed.

I am in senior management in After Sales Service at a company that sells over 2.5 million pieces of a product to consumers each year, in the U.S. alone. Of these units sold, less than 1% have warranty concerns, some real, some perceived. However, if you were to listen to the telephone calls our telephone teams receive, you would think that ALL of the product was not worth purchasing.

We are all VERY quick to complain when a problem arises, but rarely take the time to pass along our positive experiences. Each of us has an expectation that a product purchased will operate flawlessly. In reality, there WILL be problems at some point with anything we purchase. However, the real test of a manufacturer comes in product support and resolving issues when those problems are brought to their attention. With a new product such as the 2002 Mini, I am sure that service had to develop solutions on the fly as the factory has never seen the problem at hand and did not have the solution. It appears to me that MINI has done a great job in developing solutions quickly and providing high levels of service overall. After all, we are or will enjoy top level BMW service on a Toyota priced vehicle.

JB

 

This should be a "REQUIRED READING" post for all members of this site.

Excellent job.

 

Thanks for putting this all into words, Mr.S ...
... I think it's all a matter of perspective ... as the owner of several
BMC/Leyland autos, where rattles and 'gremlins' where a matter of daily
concern, this latest incarnation of the 'British' car is a carefree joy! My MINI has been relatively trouble-free - and the fact that it corners almost as well as the
Classic means I can just go out and have fun ... and that's what it's all about.

There are a lot of kids that have grown up on Hondas and don't know what it means to maintain or tinker ... they just want the appliance-like reliability of a washing machine or microwave - and there's nothing wrong with that! ... but part of the appeal of the MINI for me is that it can so easily be improved (see 'performance mods') and customized ... and that it requires so much Less tinkering than cars - any cars - of thirty years ago.

 

I think you made a very good point indeed,and as in short a post as you could to make such a point.
I will take delivery of my S in July, and have been to the dealer many times just to look and ponder options, colours and such. And upon doing so, I see 10 to 12 people in line, or hear the phone conversations with service people. They are all usually small little non-warranty problems that just seem to be annoying to an owner as opposed to something major. When the dealerships and service centers are flooded with type of small problem calls, thats when they have a hard time trying to please everyone, whining about wind shield wiper that seemed to not be wiping properly, for one example I overheard a complaint about, hence the bad service opinion. He had over 6000 miles on his MINI for @#$!'s sake and been through a winter, CHANGE THE DAMN BLADES YOU IDIOT.
Anyway, you made a very clear and accurate point. GOOD POST and HAPPY MOTORING, now and upon the arrival of your MINI S.

 

I think, like someone previously posted, that the forums are a place for both positive and negatives about the car. People will post small annoyances just to see if anybody else has experienced them.

When I owned a 2001 Lexus IS 300, someone posted that their tranny had "lagged" when they were at a traffic light ready to make a left; leaving him with a dead gas pedal for about 2 seconds. Kinda FREAKY if you're trying to make a quick left. Well, it turns out every 2001 had a to get an ECU update. If that person hadn't posted it, and realized that 100s of other people had had this problem, it wouldn't have been mobilized and organized enough for Lexus to take action, and issue a recall.

Another example, the blown S54 engine in the 2001 BMW E46 M3s! Newsgroup readers mobilized and raised a major stink to BMW that the engines in their 55k cars were blowing up!

Newsgroups have the power of organizing people's opinions and experiences in one place. I think cars are better because of the internet age, seriously.

Any savvy car person should know that just coz you read about little problems, doesn't mean any one particular car is bad. A car is mechanical, and is bound to have problems and/or failures.

Then again, people do complain about some seriously whack ****... I mean cmon, do you want your car to give you a blow job too??

 

>>Then again, people do complain about some seriously whack ****... I mean cmon, do you want your car to give you a blow job too??


I'd pay double for one of those!

 

Mr S - Great write up!

 

yeah that would justify me paying over MSRP for my MCS

>>>>Then again, people do complain about some seriously whack ****... I mean cmon, do you want your car to give you a blow job too??
>>
>>
>> I'd pay double for one of those!

 

"...amen!"

 

Very well written post Mr. S, you literally took the words right out of my mouth. It took me a moment to commit myself into purchasing a MINI, and this forum was of extreme help in finalizing my decision. One of the greatest things about this place is the camraderie, and being able to hear the good, bad, ugly, and beautiful experiences of this car. It's true if all you read is the obituaries and bad news in a paper you will start believing that the world is going down, crime is always around the corner, and people are dropping dead left and right. It's only when you start to focus only on one side that you start believing that is all there is. People are always drawn to scenes of mishaps and mayhem it makes for better reading, but every day to day living is not always that intense, so we should just all motor and take the potholes as they come.

BTW-For all you Southern Cali drivers could there be anymore pot holes on the 91, 710, and 101 freeways!

 

:smile: I think you said it all, and hope we don't have to revisit this topic too much more often...sigh!

Cheers!
Clover

 

when does this blow job car come out?

 

Yet another long-winded and opinionated post from someone who doesn't even own a MINI! That's what makes MCO so great!? (But that's another topic.)

I read this as one massive self-rationalization. Mister_S, I'm worried about you. I would argue that you are not in touch with your true feelings toward the MINI. You need to accept the fact that you have fallen in love with an odd and remarkable little car, and have made a purchase decision that is impossible to defend on rational grounds.

Why can't we just be honest? Quality is not the MINI's strong point so far. It is NOT on the level of a Toyota or Honda, or even a BMW. It IS, without a doubt, an absolutely fabulous driver's car with very few contemporary peers and, for some, a great design.

You buy a MINI because, for one reasonor another, you fall in love with the car. Love is not rational. I'm comfortable with that. Mister_S, you need to accept how you feel toward your future MINI, or your relationship will not survive beyond your first unscheduled service visit.

 

>>when does this blow job car come out?

 

>>>>when does this blow job car come out?
>>

It would be the first tobble to wear out!

 

I'm not sure the Oral se% toggle switch function would pass safety regulations. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE this option (as would anybody), I just can't see it being realistically feasible. Perhaps when auto-pilot features are more prevalent?!

_________________
Wisdom is not a function of age, but a function of experience.
*Keeper of the CWFAC
list*

 

too true- but what a way to go!