In the last thread
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=37505

we were discussing the counterfeit MINI Autosport Jacket sold by SIAMSELLER on eBay.

Here's a breakdown of what it would take to make that jacket in the US.

• digitize 5 logos for embroidery @ $85each ( I use the good guy)=$475.00
• order a minimum of 100 of each patch (those are patches I presume on the sleeves) at bout $2-$3 each. Let's say $2. 500 patches =$1000
• buy a ready made racing style jacket (made in China) for $30. A minimum of 12 in each size to get that price. This would have to be a jacket that you wouldn't hit me with for falling apart at the 2008 Dragon Run. Let's say I need 4 sizes so 48 jackets =$1500 (including shipping).
• Pay $1 for each patch to be sewn on. but wait...the sewers minimum is 500 pieces. Okay. he'll do it for $2. 10 patches per Jacket or 480 patches. =$900 ( I'm leaving out the huge MINI embroidery on the back so this doesn't get too ridiculous.
• Okay. so now I've invested nearly $3900 in 48 jackets and haven't sold one yet. My cost is $81.25. I have to sell this for $159 (standard mark up for clothing) and be ready to sell off the ones I don't sell in the first season for $99 when all I have left is 4 Mediums and a XXXL.
• What did I leave out? The licensing fees paid to Castrol, JCW, MINI, Dunlop, etc. Most likely these would be about $150K each or some kind of % arrangement. But wait. They don't want to sell a license to me unless my sales are more than 10,000 pcs. in a year.
• Okay. So I move to Thailand where I can live like a king on $5 a day. Screw the US and UK Trademark laws and make a $2 jacket that I sell to you for $39.

Sorry to hijack this thread but you said you wanted opinions
good or bad. I'm not whining. I've made my bed and I like lying in it. We're in a Walmart economy and there ain't nuthing I can do about it. It was a downer though when that lady at AMVIV scoffed at my prices for the PJs and stormed off.

So I've taken you on a little tour of the garment industry in our own country where we used to make things.

Today, Congress proposed restrictions on 14 garment categories that we import from China. On Jan. 1 all quotas on Chinese textiles were lifted. We used to have quotas that limited the amount of textile goods imported from China. Now we don't. Here's some news for you http://www.caltradereport.com/eWebPa...112660682.html

This as you can imagine has just about slammed the lid on the few remaining companies that make or sew clothing in this country. I went to drop in on the tiny 20 person factory that sewed my PJ's for me to see about a price for MINI Aloha shirts. There was a sign on the door. " For lease". Bummer... the Armenian lady used to force me to eat her delicious Baclava and drink super-strong coffee while I waited .

I'm not saying "Buy American!!" It's nearly impossible and I'm driving a British car anyway and wearing Chinese PUMAs ( or wherever they're made). Just wanted you to be aware of what's really going on.

Wanna hear about the $28 T shirts available at your MINI dealer?. Probably not. Hey I bought some , too.

 

I truly feel your pain . I lease industrial property for a living and alot of my tenants are small machine shops, injection molding and the like (actually used to lease to a couple of garment shops, mainly sewing facilities but they all moved out). I really gets me down in the dumps to see some of these people struggling. They work hard and actually make a product, as opposed to most of the service industries or entertainment and sports (Seems like that is all we produce in this country anymore, movies and professional athletes), yet can't struggle by and make a living. I do hope things change for the better but I don't know if that hope is based in reality.

 

Yes, it's bad. Having worked in the movie industry for 15 years I can tell you that we hardly make movies here anymore either. We lose a lot of work to Canada, Romania, Hungary, etc. Guys that have been painting sets or hauling lights around for years are losing their homes.

But this is the reality. We won't feel it for awhile. We're going to have to get used to lower wages soon though and the Walmarts of the world are paving the way. ie: we won't cry as much about low wages as long as we can get cheap stuff.

Here's another fine product from our friend on eBay. Funny..he says he'll ship worldwide but he won't ship to France or Italy. Wonder why.

 

Don't EVEN get me going on this topic, (oh well, too late).

Our industries are in a loosing battle because the American consumer what's everything, with the best quality, dirt cheap and the want it 24 hours a day.
The current American mindset is killing all manfactoring in the US. In my town of 26,000 people, we have lost over 3000 well paying manufactoring jobs in the last 4 years. the current unemployment rate in my county is 10% and has no hope of getting better.

Where did all of these jobs go?
*The place that makes car air bags went to Mexico because the government will protect them from law suits.
*The place that made transformer boxes and switching boxes, (like you see in telco data centers and transformer sites) went to China because of the cheaper rates of labor and the government incentives, (the adverage work made 17.00/hour).
* The place that made brake systems for cars went to China. See above reason.
* The high end printing plant that employed 600 people. They closed because their main client, Sony Music closed their disk pressing plant up the road. Why? Main reason, (not the only one) illegal downloading of music. The adverage employee there made 36,000+ a year plus benifits.

I can go on but it gets boring and sad to list all the jobs that have been lost. All the families that are on hard times because of plant closings makes you wonder what the American public is thinking.

What can each person do? Not much on your own but, collectivly, we have the power to reverse the trend.
1: Boycott WalMart, SAMS, COSCO, Home Depot and the like. I live in a small city and there is nothing I can't buy from a small business that the "Box" retailers offer. Sure, sometimes they are a little higher, (usually not enough to make a great differance) but you are helping maintain the local ecomomy. My family has not set foot into a WalMart in almost 3 years.
2: Get involved. Find out what your local city leadership is doing to combat this problem. I'm working with the city leaders to set up a business incubator to attract and keep some mid sized companies to our area.
3. Think before you buy. Some one, some where is paying the price for the 30.00 jacket. Enough said.

I really did not mean to get on my soap box but, if the American public dose not wake up and see what is happening, our counrty will suffer the same fate as Spain did durning the 15th and 16th centries.
What happened to Spain, back then, was the cost of goods being made in Spain was so high no one would buy them, (mainly cloth, leather products and food). The merchant class started inporting goods from Italy, Protugal and other parts of Europe. That lead to a huge trade inbalance. That in turn led to huge government deficits, (no taxable goods or wages being produced at home). Spain had to find money---> enter the "New World" and it's gold.

See any simularities with what's happening todya in the US?

 

OK, guys. I bought two of the jackets! I knew full well that these jackets could not possibly be properly licensed for that price, And I totally sympathize with your argument and feel the pain of what you say. I am thinking more about what I did in buying the jackets and how it is not ethically "right". But the reason I did it was not based solely on price. I would have paid $159 for it. The reason I bought them is I have not even SEEN a similar product anywhere else for ANY amount of money. Maybe I missed something. But I'm an ebay junkie, and that seller is the only one I have seen with MINI jackets. If somebody else wants some of my money, they should sell what I'm after! I honestly would have paid more to deal with a US seller! And if demand isn't high enough for JCW or anybody else to sell licensing to somebody to allow them to make the jackets, what are your options if you want a MINI Cooper jacket? I understand they are making money off of MINI, Castrol, JCW, etc. without paying them, and I see your point in that is wrong. So I do feel like SIAMSELLER is ripping off a ton of big automotive companies by using their logos without their consent. Again, this is not right. But what I don't understand is how am I, Joe Consumer, hurting someone else's sales of something they do not even make? If MINI, JCW, Castrol, or anyone else wants some of my cash, they need to get the products out for sale themselves, or at least grant someone else license to do so. I would happily buy them.

 

Thats the problem we do live in a world where we want now and we don't want to pay high prices for it. This is a big factor in why Wal-Mart is so succesfull. I could complain more but since my wife works there it would be point less.

Art

 

bottom line... the us economy is self-destructing.

 

Huh??? I'm supposed to refuse to buy the best products at the best price? Aren't you arguing against the very nature of the free market economy? IMO, it's this way of thinking that has resulted in an American auto industry that churns out garbage and is stumped when people buy Toyotas or Hondas instead. And the ever-shrinking "Buy American" crowd fumes at all the import-buying "sellouts" while driving their shoddy Chevy Malibus around. Best sell your MINI and go pick up a Pontiac if this is how you really feel.

If the Chinese can make a cheaper shirt of equal quality than the Americans, then I should buy the Chinese shirt. The Americans had best figure out what they can do that the Chinese can't to stay in the game. And we can.

 

Yes.

But also, we have car manufacturers coming into USA from Japan, etc. There are successful US industries. The world changes ... it is sad for people who have lost their jobs.
Remember (in England, presumably here in USA too) the paranoia about industrial robots that would make all people out of work, or the same when computers came along ... a failed country is one that cannot adapt.

And yes I have bought PJs and other stuff from miniswag; I would not buy this jacket because there is too many logos on it - but if I could specify exactly which logos were and were not to be put on, I probably would buy it. If it was available for $100 from miniswag I would buy it too (but I think that would be my top limit).

 

Excellent counterpoint. I, too, had been looking for a nice-looking MINI jacket, and was less than thrilled about the options on Motoring Gear. So I ordered a MINI patch from eBay, probably from SIAMSELLER. I sewed it onto a Guess jacket, and it makes me happy.

And that's your option. Find a jacket that you like, that's sold by a US retailer, and then put the stuff on it that you want. Granted, I bought the patch from an overseas vendor who has no regard for the USPTO, but I paid $4 or $5, and really didn't do much for his bottom line. My $100 went to Guess. While I'm sure that most of their production actually takes place overseas, too, I am at least supporting my local economy by walking into the store and laying my money down.

BTW, I fully support a total boycott of Walmart; their practice of undermining the local economy, strong-arming the manufacturer, and eliminating the distribution chain is a horrific abuse of our economic system. Walmart wants to be able to sell all CD's for $9.99, so the music industry is considering putting fewer songs on new albums. R.E.T.A.R.D.E.D. Thanks, Walmart: You can eat me.

 

But I don't sew and whenever I make something it ends up looking like crap because as a typical American I want it made FAST with caution thrown to the wind!

(This is tongue-in-cheek. Just kidding around!:smile: )

 

You make good points too. I too, bought one of the jackets and to be perfectly honest was excited about it and hadn't really thought about the licensing situation as I bought in haste. I would have bought at a much higher price (say 159 as DVL says) if it was available through MINI or some other "authorized" (read licensed) dealer just because I am so fond of the jacket design. I hadn't actually realized or thought of the consequences to peoples way of life here and how each small thing affects somebody else. I am not a person in favor of paying higher prices just because (read my rant in the Gas Prices thread) and I do believe competition makes everything better because everybody has to "up their game" so to speak. So I am really torn, both sides have reasonable arguments.

 

I agree. I want one too and MINI should make them available. Maybe I'm just sore I can't rip off the big automotive companies without being sued.

 

This is exactly the dilemma. What the Americans can do to stay in the game is repeal all of our clean air and water laws, crush the labor unions, get rid of consumer protection laws (and trademark laws , too). If we could just go back to the turn of the 20th century where children worked in coal mines we'd be fine. The thing is that that's exactly where China and other developing countries are- developing. They want what we have and why shouldn't they have it?

Meanwhile, because they don't respect our trademark or copyright laws, or have laws in place to stop the choking pollution they are sending our way across the Pacific, their economy skyrockets. It's a cycle and the cycle is just cycling on. I heard a news story about Chinese air pollution that said if the situation stays the same (and we are already getting their pollution over here ) everything we've done with our, re-burners on factory emissions, catalytic converters and unleaded gas will be cancelled out.

We're really taking about about fair trade, not just free trade. But me or your boycotting Walmart or Siamseller is going to to little. If these huge companies do not protect their trademarks, it's not really your problem. Somehow they let this guy sell 4000+ fake items (see his feedback) and they don't care. He's really just being smart. Similarly, if our government is not going to do anything about illegal aliens crossing our borders to take jobs of American citizens--(and it's not just strawberry picking jobs; there are plenty of construction workers that have lost their jobs to "undocumented workers" who will work for less)--.then it must be okay.

I'm not an economist or a sociologist so I don't really know where we are headed (do they?). Bottom line is if I want to compete I need to find a way to circumvent the law and give the consumer what they want at a price they can afford or want to pay. This isn't about making you feel bad because you bought a jacket you like. You shouldn't feel bad. It's there in the marketplace and you bought it.

Maybe I'll write some letters to MINI USA, JCW and Castrol etc. and ask permission to make a cool jacket. Now that would be an interesting thread.

 

I would just like to offer my kudos to all on this thread for not turning this into one of the flaming, hateful bash fests that threads like these often become. So far, this has been a good exchange of ideas, with each side giving consideration to the others points of view.

 

I'd just like to chime in and agree with Dansmini. I would have paid a bit more for a locally produced jacket, but couldn't find one I liked at any price. I was wary about buying from Thailand (with shipping costing 50% of the purchase price) until I read the 7800 feedbacks from 4000 users. That means that he's averaging 90% of buyers either return or buy 2 items up front.
I'm an easy sale. Have what I want at what I consider a good price, I'll buy on the spot. If not, I'll walk out and stop wasting your and my time.

 

Our local MINI club got a deal together to get club shirts. They're mechanic style shirts w/ various local MINI sponsors patches. In the end, when it was all said and done, the shirts wound up costing members nothing. Not sure of the whole story, but I believe sponsorships covered everything. Very cool shirts. I don't have a pic, but if you're really curious it might be worth snooping around at www.metroplexmini.org for pics and for info on how this was accomplished.

 

Yup, we're a developed country, with all of the environmental and worker protection afforded by our laws and unions (what's left of them), competing with countries that don't have that 'overhead.'

One (or both!) of two things will have to happen to create parity. Either our unions, high wages, workplace safety laws, and environmental protection laws will disappear, leaving us where we started the last century or, the citizens of developing countries will begin to demand workplace safety, better wages, and the protection of their environment from their governments and industries.

Either way, the U.S. economic position as 'top dog' is in jeopardy, unless we continue to work harder and innovate better than the rest of the world. There is no free ride and we are not entitled to a better standard of living just because we're Americans. We have to work for it.

 

Wal-Mart does not have the best products for the best price. Wal-Mart squeezes the suppliers on price consessions and the suppliers have to cut corners on production quality to turn a profit.
Case in point...
You go to Wal-Mart and buy a golf shirt, (since we are talking about clothing items here). How long will that shirt last compaired to a better quality shirt from say, Polo or Banana Republic?

Golf shirt from Wal Mart: $12.00. Colors fade after 5 washings, (I speak from past experiance). Shirt hits the trash can after less than 6 months use.
Shirt from Polo or BR: 32.00. colors are fast, (don't run or fade). Shirt is around for 3+ years.

As far as trading in my Mini. I bought on a quality stand point, not price. I knew BMW had built a great machine with a lot of class. That's why I bought a Mini. The same is true for the Toyota Prius we bought last year. quality product. Could we have purchased cheaper cars? Yes. Could we buy better cars for the money? In our opionion, no.

Most of the items you buy at Wal-Mart are available for a compairable price some where else.
Castrol oil, 1.79 quart at Wal-Mart.
Same price at Auto Zone, (and you don't have to hike all over a 200,000 ft2 building to get it and wait 20 minutes for check out).
Garden plants: Tomato plants Wal-Mart 1.96 each.
Local Garden shop where the guy knows my name: 1.99.

 

great point, duncan.

 

Which is why I wouldn't buy a golf shirt from Wal-Mart. But that is where I'll buy my laundry detergent, batteries, spray paint, etc. because they generally will be cheaper than elsewhere (if only slightly), and I get it all in one place. Do I (or should I), as a consumer, care who Wal-Mart squeezes to get me the best price? No. It's called efficiency.

(Yes, the thread started talking about clothing, but the issue carries across the board...)

BTW, that Polo or Banana Republic shirt isn't made in the US of A either. It could even be made in the same Third World sweatshop as the Wal-Mart shirt, but buying it in the fancy mall store, with all their fancy advertising, is going to cost you. (Though I agree the quality would typically be higher, but I don't think the issue we're debating is quality...)

And since we're talking about buying based on the hands that made the product vs. any other criteria: should I buy something made in California even if it's more expensive than something made in Arkansas? If I don't, I'm hurting Californians' jobs. But wait, what if I find a cheaper California product, but it turns out to be manufactured by illegal immigrants? Should I buy that? How about the Honda made in the U.S. vs. the GM made in Canada? Which purchase is helping my country more? And if I buy the GM made in the US and it depreciates 50% in the first 2 years, I'm hurting my pocketbook. Is it preferable to hurt my own pocketbook vs. the pocketbook of some UAW worker in Detroit? And I obviously shouldn't buy a VW because of the company's **** origins. But wait, GM did big business with the *****, so I guess I can't buy a GM either. And Henry Ford was an anti-semite, so Ford is out. Chrysler? Nope, they're now tied to those evil Germans. What about Japanese? No way. Out of the question. Remember Pearl Harbor? Looks like I'll be walking. But wait, should I wear leather shoes? What about animal rights? I guess I'll have to settle for hemp sandals made by a pesticide-free religiously-non-denominational commune in Portland.

See all the hazy areas you have to navigate when you try to buy on principle? It's a nightmare.

Find the best product at the price you want to pay and buy it. Simple. And if you manage to find that product a few bucks cheaper from another guy on another website, even better.

I guess my bottom line to this particular thread is this: if you can't make a jacket that you can sell at a profit because your competitors (foreign or domestic, legally or illegally) can kill you on pricing, well, don't make a jacket. Make something your competitors aren't making. Or make it better to justify the higher price. The market will decide if it's worth it. It's the American way.

P.S. This is a good read on the dilemma of the US auto industry:

http://www.facsnet.org/tools/biz_econ/detroit_auto.php

 

Yeah, it's good conversation and debate. It's also taking my mind off my stuck driver's seat.

Here's a jacket idea. Let me know if you have any suggestions.
See Vendor Announcements.

 

Saw your post on the vendor's section. It will be interesting to see what kind of response you get!

 

I guess what I'm getting at is, as a small business owner, (My company makes CDs and DVDs for corporations) I always try to shop in order of my priorities.
They are:
Quality
Service
Local owned business
Smaller business
Price

I understand the global market as well as anyone, (I have to compete with Chineese companies all the time). I sell based on quality and service. I can't compete with a company that does not respect royalities or patents.

For the record, WalMart has so many labor law suits aginst them for everything from sexual harrassmant to blantant discrimation it is not funny. They don't treat their workers with respect and treat the suppliers even worse.
Sorry, I don't do business with companies like that.

 

I can understand that point. I work for a "niche" insurance company. We do not compete on price. We compete on superior service and knowledge of niche products (boats, travel trailers, collector cars, mobile homes, etc.). For some, though, it is all about price. You really can't fault them for it. But, to each their own. I admire the fact that you're applying your own business ethics not only to your business, but holding the places you patronize to those same standards. Seems only fair to me.