I keep seeing threads with talk of the 07s (or thereabouts) being bigger, uglier, turbocharged, etc...

I've seen so many threads about rattles and windshield cracks and yo-yo and stumble and other QC/design problems in earlier models...

And I think, man, I bought my 05 MCS at just the right time. It seems like they've got most of the bugs worked out, while keeping more or less to Frank Stephenson's original design. I know some people don't like the three-spoke wheel, or the all-red taillights w/ reverse, or the raygun look of the Xenon headlights, but I don't mind them at all.

I think people are going to look back on the 05 (and presumably 06) MINIs and say, yeah, that was the year. Kind of like the 67 Austin Healey BJ8, the 64 and 65 XKEs, the MK2 Spitfires. When they got it right, before they "improved" it.

God, I love my car!!!

 

I can see what you mean - people are just starting to mention things like overly-designed interiors and other options, etc... Seems like they're gearing up to change a bunch of things that might not be worthy of being "fixed."

Time will tell though. I'm glad I'll be ordering my MINI soon as well, getting in the tail end of the 05 Model Year. Here's to seeing what comes of it all!

 

NB: IMHO:

As a designer I always look forward to new products. I enjoy second guessing why they happened. With cars new products tend to respond to regulations and economics over all else. The market research into styling that most companies conduct is akin to voodoo (not very thorough). That may be why we get the occasional blunder such as the Pontiac Aztec.

We know that the upcoming MINI has been tweaked in response to new EU regulations (the CAFE standard should be applauded). Spy photos and guesses suggest the new car will look less eccentric. This is usually the result of cost cutting that can yield tech and performance improvements (fewer parts better screwed together). I think BMW believes it is evolving the appearnce of the MINI into the ultimate/platonic version, more universal and, while acknowledging history, less dependent on the British tradition (which was key to relaunching the marque).

Lombard Street mentions excellent examples of product line recidivism. But those examples were among the last of the Age of the Mechanic. Back then, a 10 year old car might have performed as well as its successors. Since then, Japanese production methods and the computer have affected how we assess our everyday car. Nowadays we cannot imagine our automobiles breaking down. And we have even become intolerant of squeeks and rattles (even on NAM). We expect and are attracted to near-perfection in our cars. And, so far, most manufacturers have been able to deliver performance improvements (reliability, fuel economy, cleaner emissions, speed, handling, safety, comfort) with each new model so we tend to trust and prefer the new to the old while overlooking details in appearance.

In 2007, current MINI owners might distinguish between theirs and the replacement. But who will be able to resist the new MINI (perhaps not the 2007 version, but soon afterward) if it can average 35 mpg (new motor's efficiency), launch us to 60 mph in 5.5 seconds (new motor's potential), beat our present car in the wigglies (new suspension mods and more wheel space), have more room in back (more compact rear suspension), be safer (more tech), and all within the same overall dimensions (pretty close). Eventually, current MINI owners might even find their cars looking a bit overdecorated (perception of appearance is usually relative). I'm just hypothesizing, but these seem within reason.

If we are very lucky, in future, the current MINI might become as "interesting" as the last of the air-cooled Porsche "911" Carreras. Recall when the water cooled Carrera was introduced. Controversy. The end of Porsche. I prefer the older model, but the newer one does everything better and the recent facelift has been difficult to fault.

But unlike the Porsche Carrera the new MINI will be targeting a bigger market. There will be a huge bunch more MINI owners. The Golden Age might be now. But not because the current MINI will become a classic. It might be because of the enthusiasm and empathy a fraction of the population of current owners has been able to share with each other on the Internet (such as NAM) and at gatherings. It's a good time to be here.

 

I'm not looking forward to the Mini becoming the next Honda Civic :(

 

I second that... With all the new MINIs being produced, they are becoming more and more common... I dont want them to become the next Civic... I love that while they are becoming more well known they still maintain a certain standard and stand for the amazing community that we have.

 

Nice post, well stated. Now that I think about it, I wonder if BMW hasn't done this intentionally: Make a radical, quirky design that attracts a lot of attention and inspires fanaticism in its owners. And then capitalize on that by, as you say, "targeting a bigger market" and making the car a little larger, a little tamer, a little less quirky and radical.

Case in point: the automatic transmission for the MCS. When I went shopping for a new car, the MCS was my first choice. But I was worried that I wouldn't be able to get one with a stick. (I still remember the late 70s/early 80s when you almost couldn't buy a car with a stick!) When I found out that the MCS only came with a stick, well, that was one of the things that absolutely sold me. "Oh my god, these guys are serious about building an enthusiast's car. Can't drive a stick - too bad. You don't get to have a MINI Cooper S!"

Now you can get an automatic. (Let's please keep the pro and con arguments in other threads!) But I wonder if this isn't another sign that the Golden Age of Motoring is coming to an end!

I'm wondering if 10 years from now, MINI Coopers will be as big - and as "homogenized" - as Camrys.

 

I think people are going to look back at of all us that got on board early ('02-'06) and say, "Man, those guys who bought the early MINIs were BRILLIANT!" "Damn, I wish I had a time machine and could go back and get me one of those cars when they were new!"

 

Lombard, don't forget that the original MINI spawned several permutations, most of which were anything BUT "an enthusiast's car". BMW would actually be remaining true to the history of the car if they indeed produce a wagon, a panel truck, etc.

Having said that, I do worry about the choices they might make, because I see them 'urinating' the pedigree of their primary brand right down the drain with their abandonment of some of their core values (evolutionary styling, 'driver's machine', adopting i drive, etc.).

Bottom line, everything eventually evolves, we just have to hope that BMW demonstrate good judgement in retaining the aspects of the car that attracted current owners, while adding things that attract new owners. Don't forget a link I posted a week ago or so, BMW is expanding the MINI plant to an ultimate capacity of 300,000 units. That sales volume won't happen overnight, but it's indicative of where they want to go.

 

(Hey, 62Lincoln - how ya bin?)

Yeah, there were the Moke and the Clubman, etc. But while they were doing that, the Cooper S'es kept getting better, too. (At least that's my impression - I'm not as "up" on the original Mini history as I could be.)

I've seen so many cars get bigger and heavier and uglier. It's the American way - more, more, more! Remember the first Civics? There weren't much bigger than our MINIs. Now look at them - bigger than the first Accords! And look at the Accords! They look like Buicks!

The new MINI capitalized on its image as bucking the SUV trend. I think everyone (even BMW/MINI, I suspect) was shocked to see what a success the car was in the US. And now the MINI is slated to get bigger and heavier and uglier, too.

As I said at the start of this thread, God, I love my car! I'm so glad I got it when I did! It sounds to me like the major changes that are coming are all things I don't want!

 

This sort of stuff is always fascinating to read. Presently, I'm looking to upgrade my not even one year old CVT MC to an MCS stick...and I've not driven a stick in 10 years! (Heck, I'm not sure I've ever driven a good stick ever, but I've got my fingures crossed on this one.)

I feel that the 2007 MINI will likely introduce enough changes, that I'll either be happy I got one of the last "great" MINI's, or...I'll be thinking, "Geez, I can't wait to get one of those new ones."

As far as the introduction of an automatic MCS being the death of the MINI as an enthusiast's car... I don't know about that. If I had the money, I'd likely get that automatic, as many Americans apparantly will. However, since I don't have the money...I'm kind of looking forward to getting my hands on a nice, slick, high performance stick operated vehicle, for likely the first time in my life.

The introduction of an automatic MCS (and a rather cool one at that), may mean the death of future MCS's having a standard transmission. But, assuming you've still got your's, and assuming you still love it, and have taken care of it, well...heck, what do you care? Will I care? Probably not. I'll either keep this upcoming MCS of mine a very long time (at least 10 years, when my daughter is supposed to get it for college, assuming she gets into college), or I'll be all ga-ga over some other car of some kind.

You should keep in mind, that as gas prices do their slow, but continuous, upward rise (despite the occasional drop), small cars are going to be more "in" as time goes by. However, future developments may allow fairly large vehicles to get better and better mileage, so it's nearly impossible to say what will happen with automotive design over the long haul. Better, lighter, stronger, quicker CVT automatics will likely appear, as well aas completely different solutions to transmitting power to the wheels. Hybrids will likely become more numerous, and more sophisticated. And then there is always the possibilty of serious developments going on in the area of hydrogen powered vehicles, etc.

Who knows what the future will hold for MINI's, or any other car. A few years ago, I never knew about even the old Mini's, and now I'm driving around in one of the latest renditions. I'm nearly as surprised about that as everyone else I know!

 

I noted that a lot of car design has to do with changes in law. I also note that I got turned off the original mini and feel they got pulled from the US market because of the bumper law and other safety regulations in the 70's. Emissions regulations in the 70's probably also squeezed some life out of them too.

I believe it is requirement in Europe starting in 2007 that the hood has to be a certain height. This makes us assume the car is going to look ugly with the high bonnet height. I noted that even Honda (in Canada anyways) have put a spin about pedestrian safety in their advertising. In reality, they are only following what is being regulated. So far, all we've seen are mostly spy photos and until we see an actual production car, we won't know what the MINI will look like. Some cars come out looking ugly but in some cases, we warm up to its looks. It depends on how the design ages. That's the reason I bought a MINI as I feel the design will age well and still (in my opinion) look fresh 10 or more years from now. I also have a Pontiac Fiero and in my opinion, still looks fresh even at 20 years old. Oh..there are some that look downright ugly because they are poorly kept but if kept in good condition, they still look good. The current MINI probably will still look good 10 years from now, but we won't know what a 2007 MINI will even look like so I'll have to reserve judgement until we see them at autoshows.

I have no doubt that BMW will make it a "driver's car" as they have made our current MINIs and their other cars. How complicated they make them is still an unknown. We'll just have to wait and see.

The reason I waited until 2005 is because of most the bugs being ironed out by now. I also like the "laser beam" headlights.

 

I don't see that happening anytime soon simply becasue of the price point difference.

 

Hmph... EU pedestrian safety regs resulting in higher bonnet... You know, that's the problem with Europeans. They're always walking and bicycling everywhere. There are way too many pedestrians! Of course there are going to be collisions when everyone insists on walking five minutes to the bakery for a loaf of bread, or twenty minutes to go to work!


Sorry, I don't mean to derail a very interesting discussion. It is interesting to try to find the happy medium between working out the initial bugs and introducing too many pointless gadgets and tacky trim pieces. Ultimately it's a matter of individual opinion that we're never going to come to a consensus on, which is what makes these forums so interesting...

 

Aha. It's interesting to see the Euro safety regulation from the bicyclist and pedestrian's viewpoint. I wish I could figure out why it would be safer to have a higher bonnet. That might render all SUVs the pedestrian's best friend.

When I first visited Shanghai in 1992 I was impressed that I could not cross the street for all the bicycles. This was in an enclave called the French Concession. I could only walk around the block my hotel was on. I did not know what else to do. The bicycles never stopped! They continued at a graceful pace going parallel and perpendicular to each other. I never saw them collide. Some had 3 people on them and several were hauling big and heavy objects. A few women were beautifully coiffed and had their skirts hiked up to the hips (almost). To me it appeared balletic. My aunt, who had a driver, pronounced it chaos and the worst traffic she had experienced in her life, "worse than Istanbul", whatever that meant.

Then the Shanghai government decided to ban bicycles because they were getting in the way of cars. When I was in Shanghai last year the same streets were deserted. It was discovered that many of those cyclists pedaled a great distance to get to the old heart of town. So by eliminating the bicycles the government also eliminated the pedestrians. That's progress.

Sorry wander so far off-topic. Lemme see. No MINIs there either.

 

It has to do with the way a pedestrian hits body of the car when they get clipped. If they double over and hit the hood with an arm or shoulder, it is less likely to result in serious injury than if they are clipped very low and hit the windshield...usually with their head.

 

No no no no no. That's what people will say about the '02-'04 models! And it just so happens that I own a 2004 MCS with a two-spoke wheel, a tiny rear-view mirror, and the much-desired Indi Blue paint.

 

Honda went through seven generations of Civics before producing one that weighed anything close to that of a Mini.

The Mini started out bloated. Doing anything to increase the curb weight would be rediculous. They have to be offering something to command the price premium that they are. Remove the style and you're left with a very overpriced compact car. Honestly though, I don't really care. I've left my brand loyalty behind and given the look of new BMW models lately, I probably won't want the buy the next Mini anyway.

 

I think you overstate the case. Yeah Civics are larger than the originals. Yeah MINIs are larger than the originals too. But both are far more capable machines in almost every regard.

If you don't believe the current MINI more capable than the old Mini, you probably have not crashed or broken down in an old Mini. Is that a place you really want to be?

They don't rust.
They don't break down. (as often)
They are definitely safer.
They are definitely more comfortable.
AND THEY ARE FASTER.

If you don't believe they are faster, just compare the power to weight ratio from a 1960's Classic Cooper S to a modern Cooper S. It's revealing.

I like classic Minis...hell, I love them. I love old machines in general. But I love technology too.

 

Something interesting...as I was/am a BMW fan first a MINI fan second. BMW treats the NA market very differently then the rest of the world, hence no hatcback being brought over, at least not anytime soon. I had an 84 533i I got rid of before my new MINI. If you had Mercede's as your parent company, you could expect the market flooded immediately, just as they have done with their round of hatchbacks. MINI's sit right next to BMW's at the dealership and believe me when I say, BMW does not want to water their product down or make it any less then a drivers car. My only concern would be the blending of the 3 series and the MINI, I want them to stay cars for different markets.