Since I have been a fire investigator for 18 years, I've been following this thread with some interest. Accidental car fires occur for many reasons. The combination of gasoline, heat, combustibles, and electrical current under the hood of any car is a fire waiting to happen. Some electrical connection fails... arcs... and catches plastic or insulation on fire. The big investigation thing you're looking for does not make sense in my opinion. The insurance company is offering you more than you paid for the car! Most people have to fight for a fair settlement. Take the money and buy a new car...Mike

 

I totally agree! Take the money and move on!

 

Can someone explain to me what might compel an insurance company to do this? Did you have a special "replacement cost" endorsement on your policy? I would think that they would be obligated to pay to replace this 3 year old car with a like vehicle, not reimburse more than the original purchase price.

 

:smile: I appreciate the fact that Mike and Donna are willing to take the time to assure that a thorough investigation/autopsy is done on Scooter.

Like Yucca stated, they are among the original handful of MINI enthusiasts who helped to create our wonderful MINI community, and as such, feel an obligation to us all to make sure nobody is injured by what may be a defect in early-build 2002 MCSs.

Knowing them personally, I'm positive that they are absolutely looking out for everybody else's welfare in how they are handling the investigation of Scooter's demise.

Seems to me that the check will be waiting for them when they are satisfied that the incident has been properly resolved.

They deserve our thanks and appreciation. Thanks, you two!


Clover

 

I was so sorry to hear of this incident. What a mess. I hope that something comes out of this investigation, good or bad. I really think that if having it investigated more thouroghly will have no negative affects on the claim that it is just the right thing to do. If it is a strange inherant defect in a small percentage of MINIs I do think that the owners of that small % will be very thankful to find out this is a problem before they wake with the house in flames because their beloved MINI spontaneously combusted.

Things do just burn sometimes and if that is the case then we can all just rest a bit easier.

I think MINIUSA is concered with costumer loyalty, hence the trouble put to finding you a repacement in production. I like to think the best of people. I probably should work on that.

Best of luck to you. Once again, I am so sorry, what a mess.

 

Coming from someone who just got paid by an insurance company for a totaled car (A 2003 Mazada Tribute), I can tell you that if you have a good insurance company, then you are going to get a good price for your car. Our adjustor told us that he valued our car based on condition (before collison), mileage, and cost of buying (tax, title, dealer costs ~ 900.00 in AL). The costs of buying thing wow-ed me since I never thought of that. So I guess it does pay to go with a insurance company that truly values your car. I imagine the fact that this was one of the first cars available in the US of a much loved brand made it all the more valuable.

 

Donna - thanks for keeping us updated. Good to hear that the insurance company has been very fair with their payout. Regarding the Mazda lineup.. we have an RX-8 in the family and love it.

Good luck with the continuing investigation. :smile:
My insurance company also awarded me more than my purchase cost when my 03 Cooper was totaled. Granted, it was newer and lower mileage (03 car, totaled at end of 04 & 24,000 miles) but given the condition, options, etc. they calculated a 'replacement value' that was higher than MSRP. We never discussed having them directly replace the car (which they could have done for about 3K less).. they just decided thats what it was worth.

 

That's all fine and dandy

But I find it very hard to argue with a $25K settlement check. Take the money! MINIUSA WON'T care either way! I just don't understand the logic behind not accepting the claim money. Like it was stated before, lesser insurance companies give their customers a very hard time in order to settle for a fair claim amount and in this case, thier insurance was prompt, quick and professional and shall we say, extremely fair.

Put the money in the bank and let MINIUSA worry about finding the causes of the engine fire. They are the ones that have to put the pieces of the puzzle together

Let's quit playing president of the United States.

I can't stress this enough...Take the money and move on! You are not lawyers or paid automotive engineers or members of the National Highway Traffic safety board. Let those folks do their jobs!

We all appreciate your standing in the issue, but you will be doing a big disservice to you by not accepting the claim money. It is very noble to want to help the community you feel so connected with, but don't lose sight of what it is really important as well.

Take the money and keep all of us informed. It almost seems as the insurance claim money is "Dirty money". C'mmon!

 

It was a bad incident indeed, but Donna and Mike did very well in the end given the circumstances:

1) No loss of life.
2) Aside from the burnt car, no other property was compromised
3) Insurance was quick and fair.
4) Settlement check cut out for more than original price paid for vehicle nearly 3 years ago.
5) They can buy a new MINI or any other new car CASH, today!

Oh boy!. I wish many unfortunate situations in life had happy ending such as this!

They put 62K miles on that '02 MCS and the car cost them in the end $0 after nearly 3 years of use.

 

The wording on most auto policies is that the policy covers for "up to the actual cash value" of the vehicle. Essentially, the policy covers the car for the amount that the car would be expected to fetch on the open market, if the owner had sold it in the condition it was in immediately prior to the covered loss. In the case of Scooter's untimely demise, since the current local market conditions in California are such that people are willing to pay higher than MSRP to get their hands on a MINI- new or not- this factor is reflected in the settlement offer. :smile:

(Some states do specify a legally required reference for determining ACV. Such states are referred to in the industry as "Book States," and they usually regulate ACV determination based on one or a combination of several "Blue Book" type guides.)

Conversely, had Scooter been a Daewoo, things would be very different! Since Daewoo declared bankruptcy and stopped doing business in the U.S., the cars the sold here have almost no resale value. No one wants a car for which replacement parts are either not available, or are outrageously expensive when they can be found. (This is why auto loan applications often specifically state that no finance offer will be approved for the purchase of Daewoo, or certain other autos.)

Regarding "Stated Value" endorsements on collision/comprehensive coverage:
The name applied to this type of coverage/policy is vague, and can be misleading. (Ambiguity- the Devil's Volleyball! ) Consumers who purchase it sometimes do so in the belief that it will cover the car for the full stated value of the policy, regardless of the "ACV" of the car. Such purchases are often made for "restored" or modified cars, into which the owner has sunk considerable money. For instance, the owner bought a car for $10,000, and spent another $25,000 in renovation and mods. The owner may understand that if they were forced to sell the car, the best they could hope to get for it is $20,000. They then purchase a stated value policy for $35,000, believing that the policy will pay that much, if needed, to either fix their car in the event of a loss, or else replace it, including the cost of any work needed to make the replacement vehicle a "reasonable equivalent" of the lost/destroyed original. Unfortunately, the policy usually simply does not work that way. Instead, the policy only pays the "ACV" of $20,000. If the policy paid more than the car is actually "worth" on the open market, this would be a moral hazard and inducement to fraud, since a policyholder could stage a loss to recover the money "invested" in a vehicle- money which they could never hope to recoup by honest means, such as selling the car.

That said, there may be insurance carriers out there that would actually pay $35,000 in this situation- but I do not know of any such companies.

An honest insurance agent will advise a client of this up front, when the policy is purchased. Sadly, some agents do not. Policy premiums for a standard policy are calculated based in part on the anticipated potential loss amount. Since a stated value policy may specify maximum coverage limits that are far higher than the open market sale price of the car, the premium on an ACV policy may be significantly higher than rates for a normal policy. Agents are paid commission as a % of policy premium, so there is certainly incentive to simply let the client buy what they request, rather than talking them out of it.

Why, then, are "Stated Value" policies offered?
They are intended to be a means of controlling premiums. It works like this: a vehicle owner (often a company) has a vehicle valued at, say, $25,000. The premium for first-party (collision and comprehensive) coverage for that vehicle at ACV, with deductibles of $250.00, is $1000/year. (that's probably way low, but bear with me here! ) The owner wants to lower their premium outlay. They have reserve funds to be able to absorb up to $5,000 on a loss involving the vehicle. In order to lower their premium the desired amount, they can elect one of two options:
1) increase the per-loss deductible to, for instance, $500.00;
2) decrease the upper limit the policy will pay, by buying a Stated Value policy, with a coverage limit of $20,000.

Each tactic has benefits and disadvantages for the owner. Raising the deductible means that the owner will pay more out of pocket for every loss. If the deductible is increased to $500.00, the out-of-pocket cost to the owner jumps dramatically if the vehicle suffers multiple losses during the coverage period. (3 losses = $1,500, instead of only $750.00.) However, in the event of a catastrophic loss (i.e. the vehicle is "totalled,") the out-of-pocket for the owner is still only $500.00 for that loss.

Now, let's look at what happens with option 2. If the policy is capped at $20,000 and the deductible left at $250.00, those 3 smaller losses only cost the owner $750.00 out of pocket. Most first-party losses cost less than $20,000 to settle. (This does not include paying for at-fault damage or injury to others or their property. Also, as a side note, there is a term insurance carriers use to quantify the average amount they pay out on claims- it is referred to within the industry as "severity." The insurance companies treat this statistic as a trade secret, since it relates directly to their profit margins.) The owner is betting their $5,000 reserve cash that their vehicle won't be involved in a big loss, and that the $5,000 reserve will stay in their own coffers.

Esentially, then, a Stated Value policy allows a policy buyer to attempt to control premium costs by gambling that any loss they may suffer will be less than a given amount. In a case where the covered vehicle may suffer multiple smaller losses rather than one or a few really big ones, it can be a good tool for savvy consumers. On the other hand, if the consumer buys such a policy to try to protect their investment in a money pit, they are likely to be very angry if a loss happens, and they find out that's not what they actually bought.

Perhaps the best way to prevent the consumer dissatisfaction that can arise from such situations would be for the insurance industry to stop referring to these policies as "Stated Value," and refer to them as "Fixed Limits." Unfortunately, they'd probably sell a lot fewer of these policies under the new name, so that's not likely to happen soon.

Oh- one other twist-- some insurance carriers actively discourage policyholders from taking the gamble described above, by assessing "coinsurance" for a vehicle they deem to be "underinsured." That is, any vehicle insured for less than its current market ACV. (In the example I used above, since the stated value of the policy is 80% of the ACV of the vehicle, the policy terms may state that it pays only 80% of any loss, after subtracting the deductible. I consider such contract terms unscrupulous.

The insurance companies get away with this sort of thing because most folks don't do a detailed read-through of their policy when they buy it. They only find out when they file a claim, and are surprised at what's not paid. By then, it's too late, so watch out!

Caveat Emptor, and motor on!



-Brian (former auto insurance industry worker bee)

 

indygomini, I am going to have to read this several times again, but I think I might have learned some valuable lessons, especially when it comes to the rare cars that might be worth more used than they were new. My other vehicle is a 1994 Land Rover Defender 90 and they very often fetch prices exceeding their new car prices 11 years ago!

Methinks I need to review my insurance policies to ensure that I would be insured the the actual replacement cost of my two beloved british vehicles!

 

from the picture it looks like you had xenon lights. It also looks like the passenger side light is blown out. I wonder if the transformer attatched to the light started it. Sorry to hear about this and am curious as to what happened.

 

Along with reviewing your policy, it's also good to keep independent evidence of your cars' fair market value at hand. Since some older British cars are not frequently available for sale, it's good to be able to provide an adjuster with supporting evidence of a car's value, should tragedy strike.

Print ads (classifieds, Hemmings, etc.) with asking prices, mileage, options, condition, etc. are quite useful in this regard. Also, if you have a digital camera, it's useful to periodically photograph your cars and archive the pics on CD in your safe deposit box and/or with your agent. That way, you can prove what you have, even if it burns to the ground, or is stolen and never recovered.

An appraisal can be very useful as well, but insurance carriers treat owner-commissioned ones with well-founded skepticism. If an appraisal is offered up as support of a claim for higher market value, many insurance carriers will insist on a second, independent appraisal. At best, they may offer to split cost with you; at worst, you may have to pay for it, they choose the appraiser. They have the upper hand, since the legal burden of proof for any loss is on the party making the claim. (As to why they want a second opinion, jewelry appraisals provide the answer. It's funny how that ring you paid $2500 for comes with an appraisal sheet listing its value at $5000! )

It's kind of creepy thinking about this stuff in advance, but being prepared sure beats being faced with a low settlement offer and no recourse!

 

Just saw this from the BBC... http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/report...20050322.shtml

 

and to think we used to laughingly post in that thread, "MINI Cooper-Does it still explode?"

 

Thanks for the link on the story - I justed printed it out for my files...

Donna
02' CR/W MCS (gone to MINI heaven)
05' Cool Blue MCSC

 

Wow! glad you are ok!

 

Donna this may interest you. This is a story form a television show in the UK called “Watchdog” about consumers and problems with products they buy.

It seems like Scooter is not alone.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/reports/tran..._20050322.shtml

 

Also in the news lately... It appears that a cruise control sensor in some Ford vehicles has been found to cause fires when the vehicle is parked and the power is off. As I understand it, the sensor is in the break system, where it disengages cruise control when the breaks are applied. This unit has power even when the ignition is off. Apparently break fluid can leak into the electrical side of the sensor. I guess that the fluid contributes to arcing, which heats, evaporates, and eventually ignites the fluid.

I wonder if MINI has units with a similar potential for problems?

 

You might want to look at Cooperation's post a few posts back... Same story...

 

So sorry about your MINI! It must have been the hex of the dead rat that Donna and I picked up during one of the MINI scavenger hunts in Annapolis when you guys were still in DC.

Glad you hear you're alright and you've gotten two new MINIs! I'm very jealous as both are very cool spec!

 

So, what is the latest news on the situation? Any idea when you can tell us how the investigation went?

 

Here is another thread that we started several months ago about the cause. But it hasn't been updated so here is the update as of last week......

We did take the pay off from USAA and bought another MINI. It was then up to USAA to determine if they thought it was worth it to go after MINI. Well, we received a letter from the lawyer at USAA just last week stating that in fact, they DID think it was worth it and have now filed papers.

In the mean time, back in June, a rep from MINI did go look at the car and guess what??? He determined that is was no fault of MINI that the car burned up.. Gee - what a surprise!!! (I'm being sarcastic). We fully figured that would be the case...

We also found out that the fuse (F6) that caused the problem, was RECALLED IN CANADA and the UK.......but NOT IN THE US.....now you tell me - what the heck???????

So there ya have it.........the waiting continues....... and thanks for asking...:smile:

Donna

 

I really don't want MINI to squeak by on this stuff. I really love the cars that were orignally made by the MINI of the late '90's, but they seem to be whoring themselves like crazy now. New models, trying to appeal to the masses, windshield problems that have been ignored for years, pricing of everything going through the roof. A good example is the chrome grille option on the Cooper S. I've heard from people that have visited the factory that the robot has to pick between body colores and chrome front grilles. Does it really cost $250.00 to have the robot pick the chrome one? Noper. I guess we'll see how everything shakes down here in the next few years...

 

Peanut had a small engine bay fire this morning. It sounds suspiciously like what happened to Scooter a year ago. The fire was contained and I can't see any visible damage, so hopefully she's easily fixable. (I got to it real early). We'll see what happens next. If anyone has any more info on these mysterious fires, please post links here!

Thanks!