When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Hello,
I have a fully built motor on an R53 and trying to tune. 19lbs at wide open throttle with 26 degrees of timing. Still barely hitting 200 whp. Any thoughts? Normal timing? Can it have more? What timing are built motors seeing?
I don't know the answer to your question, but will follow the post.
What I do know is that with your current setup 17% and TMIC, your IAT's at WOT are going to be insane. The Link compensation table will pull back your timing...relative to your timing table based on the IAT.
Have you logged your IAT when doing a dyno run? Are you running a large fan directly on top of the intercooler?
BTW the Forge isn't much better than stock (from personal experience).
You need to get a TVS
Which TMAP sensor are you running? Stock can't do 19psi!!
Verified boost from 2 different points on intake manifold. Port where fuel pressure regulator vacuum connects behind intake manifold and in the front/left, where there is a small circular cap. Tapped in a nipple and installed boost gauge directly to it. About 2 feet of hose. Still says 19psi.
Installing pre and post intercooler temp gauge to get better readings. And no, no fan on top of intercooler. Just big fan up front. Might want to verify intake temps much closer.
Crank trigger is also locked at 94 and last timing was set at 26 with a 191 run on a Dynojet. It made power with each timing advance but tuner says it sounds too high. Probably gonna verify actually timing with a timing light to verify ECU triggers are correct.
Your tuner doesn't have KnockBlock or similar knock detection?
Did the tuner setup Knock Control?
That HP is about right for that amount of boost, although I would expect a bit more with that cam. We get about the same HP with ~17psi of boost, and stock cam advanced 10 degrees for more low end. We run about the same amount of timing at WOT above 5500 rpm - but with 9.3/1 pistons on 100 octane. I agree with tuner being leery going much beyond 26 degrees, especially without provision for knock control.
Stock TMAP is only good for something like 17-18psi, then it normally throws a P0108 code. I wasn't questioning your 19psi level. At that boost level I would expect that you should be running an aftermaket (3bar) TMAP...see RMW website
Have a look at your IAT's while on the dyno...I'll bet they are above the threshold for the IAT compensation table...so it is likely that even though your timing table is set to 26, you may only be seeing 20'ish because of the compensation for the high IAT. Fun a fan directly on the intercooler...this is the only way to tune these on a dyno.
Alan is also correct...it can also be that the knock circuit may be (highly unlikely because these are extremely difficult to setup on the Mini) kicking in and retarding timing. Aftermarket knock sensor is extremely helpful when setting these cars up KNOCKBLOCK from Link will work well...Might need to get me one of those as well.
You need to log your timing and IAT's in the G4 software to see your true values that the ECU is seeing/using.
Turned knock off. No signs on knock. Intake temp was tested at 22c and it peaks at 70c after constant duty. Dynojet graph is smooth. So your all telling me, with the parts and setup this car has, and 100 octane, 191 to the wheels in a Dynojet is a decent amount of power? I see people posting number in the 220-250 range on the forums with stock supercharger and less upgrades parts than me.
No, not telling you anything about your power output...just where to look for fix.
Where does your IAT compensation table begin to cut back timing? Check all your compensation tables for low trigger points.
What AFR at WOT?
Which plugs...should be running 2 steps colder than stock with that setup.
Turned knock off. No signs on knock. Intake temp was tested at 22c and it peaks at 70c after constant duty. Dynojet graph is smooth. So your all telling me, with the parts and setup this car has, and 100 octane, 191 to the wheels in a Dynojet is a decent amount of power? I see people posting number in the 220-250 range on the forums with stock supercharger and less upgrades parts than me.
REALLY..?
That is a SURE recipe for disaster !
And how do you know that there is no signs of knock ?
First thing I'd do, reconnect the knock sensor..! Even if "show no signs" of knock, having the sensor connected and working will not hurt anything. It can only do good.
I've got a dyno run of my stock JCW engine, 2005, just touching 211hp. at the wheels.
You need a competent tuner that knows the Mini engine.
And what was your readings? Timing at WOT? IAT's? Pic of dyno graph? Lbs of boost? Motor modifications? ECU flash or stand alone? Just trying to get my first question answered......
Just for Info:
1.Condition on coolant temperature to authorize the knock detection for each cylinder value 50,25ºC (122ºF)
2.Maximum pressure at the manifold 2400mBar(34,8Psi), on sea level we have 14,7Psi,so relative max pressure is 20Psi.
3."Proportionnal correction table function of the engine speed and knk_egy for fast correction 3 mapping function of the maf", make a correction of max 7,5°CRK.I think there are no concerns about knock danger, because software has enough tools to correct it.
Stock TMAP is only good for something like 17-18psi, then it normally throws a P0108 code. I wasn't questioning your 19psi level. At that boost level I would expect that you should be running an aftermaket (3bar) TMAP...see RMW website
The S TMAP max pressure is 250 kpa (36.3 psi), or 150 kpa (21.8 psi) boost. Bentley Publishers
REALLY..?
That is a SURE recipe for disaster !
And how do you know that there is no signs of knock ?
First thing I'd do, reconnect the knock sensor..! Even if "show no signs" of knock, having the sensor connected and working will not hurt anything. It can only do good.
I've got a dyno run of my stock JCW engine, 2005, just touching 211hp. at the wheels.
You need a competent tuner that knows the Mini engine.
Mike
And what was your readings? Timing at WOT? IAT's? Pic of dyno graph? Lbs of boost? Motor modifications? ECU flash or stand alone? Just trying to get my first question answered......
Just curious, how old is that CAT and have you tried running it open exhaust (or no CAT) just for testing proposes?
The parts you listed should actually bring your measured boost down slightly (1 lb +/-) and your seeing higher than normal boost, with that S/C and pulley combo, without a BVH & Cam.
Just wondering if there's a restriction somewhere.
I also don't understand turning the knock sensor off, it's a tool, why not use it, esp if your chasing timing. I'm not a tuner, but seems to me, use the knock sensor and you'll know if you're pushing the limits of timing on "your" setup.
And as an FYI, the factory MAP sensor will read and log up to 19.8 psi, anything higher than that will at the very least give you a P1238 code.
And yes I realise it doesn't apply here because of the Link.
Just some thoughts.
Last edited by BlwnAway; Mar 31, 2020 at 10:08 PM.
Just curious, how old is that CAT and have you tried running it open exhaust (or no CAT) just for testing proposes?
The parts you listed should actually bring your measured boost down slightly (1 lb +/-) and your seeing higher than normal boost, with that S/C and pulley combo, without a BVH & Cam.
Just wondering if there's a restriction somewhere.
I also don't understand turning the knock sensor off, it's a tool, why not use it, esp if your chasing timing. I'm not a tuner, but seems to me, use the knock sensor and you'll know if you're pushing the limits of timing on "your" setup.
And as an FYI, the factory MAP sensor will read and log up to 19.8 psi, anything higher than that well as the very least give you a P1238 code.
And yes I realise it doesn't apply here because of the Link.
Just some thoughts.
The Cat is the one attached to the RMW street header. Entire motor has only 8 hrs on it from RMW “ECU flash”. Never ran good with that tune. Long story. Anyways, so the cat is new. And yes, plan on removing the cat to see if more power is achieved. I also have a BVH and a cam if you look at my parts lists. That’s why I was asking from the beginning if 26 degrees of timing is normal at WOT or can it have more to find more power.
I am also not a tuner but knock sensor was on. No signs of knocking. I was told tuner turned it off to see if the timing was being pulled back due to other sensors. Not sure really. Should have verified actually TDC this weekend and will be back on dyno this week to squeeze out more power.
The fact you have the BVH & Cam is why I asked the question, they should bring your boost down some, and it seems high even for.no BVH & Cam, let alone with.
Honestly, 17% pulley, M45, BVH and Cam, you should be lucky to see 16 psi.
Anyway, it was just a thought.
Indeed, TMAP sensor max pressure is 2500hPa, but inside sw max boost pressure is set to 2400hPa, so over this value will get Limp mode.
That may be true for the stock ECU. But for the Link G4+ (which I believe he is running) there is no such thing as Limp Mode. You can setup various GP RPM limits if you wish.
The tune that comes with the MINI Link does not have a boost limit setup, which makes sense for a SC car. You should setup the Fuel & Timing tables to end at an above normal boost level with a line of 0s.
The TMAP sensor is set to generate an error code at 4.95 out of 5 volts which would be about 4.95/5*250kpa = 247.5kpa (35.9 psi) or 147.5 kpa boost (21.4 psi)
That may be true for the stock ECU. But for the Link G4+ (which I believe he is running) there is no such thing as Limp Mode. You can setup various GP RPM limits if you wish.
The tune that comes with the MINI Link does not have a boost limit setup, which makes sense for a SC car. You should setup the Fuel & Timing tables to end at an above normal boost level with a line of 0s.
The TMAP sensor is set to generate an error code at 4.95 out of 5 volts which would be about 4.95/5*250kpa = 247.5kpa (35.9 psi) or 147.5 kpa boost (21.4 psi)
Maybe just my poor english,I did not understand that it uses LinkG4+.
My bad.
The fact you have the BVH & Cam is why I asked the question, they should bring your boost down some, and it seems high even for.no BVH & Cam, let alone with.
Honestly, 17% pulley, M45, BVH and Cam, you should be lucky to see 16 psi.
Anyway, it was just a thought.
Yes, I agree with that. I figured all the better flow would become more efficient and give more power with lower boost or same power with lower boost. Just trying to figure out if there are any suspected parts that can cause that issue. Car still has cat. Back on the dyno to see where it goes.
Yes, I agree with that. I figured all the better flow would become more efficient and give more power with lower boost or same power with lower boost. Just trying to figure out if there are any suspected parts that can cause that issue. Car still has cat. Back on the dyno to see where it goes.
The fact you have the BVH & Cam is why I asked the question, they should bring your boost down some, and it seems high even for.no BVH & Cam, let alone with.
Honestly, 17% pulley, M45, BVH and Cam, you should be lucky to see 16 psi.
^this. With BVH, cam and manifold you're not going to get 19 psi out of the M45 unless the cat is blocked.
I have the same head, -17% pulley, OBX manifold, Catcams '469' and seeing barely 15 psi (227whp on E85 with IAT's through the roof).
^this. With BVH, cam and manifold you're not going to get 19 psi out of the M45 unless the cat is blocked.
I have the same head, -17% pulley, OBX manifold, Catcams '469' and seeing barely 15 psi (227whp on E85 with IAT's through the roof).
I was thinking the same thing. But when doing research online, people say a blocked cat says it should put out less boost. Maybe other people don’t know what I’m talking about or I searched the wrong thing. Makes sense to me though. Air pushes in, air can’t come out fast enough, creating excessive boost. Flow efficiency goes out the window.
