Here it is...and the MINI comes in 2nd...

S vs. SVT

_________________
BRG/W Mini Cooper S, August delivery

 

They're entitled to their opinion...we are entitled to ours! Some of my good friends drive Focuses...but not me...no way!!

 

http://www.malross.co.uk/7days7cars/the_winner.asp


MINI WON!!!!!!!!

 

Conclusion

SVT softer ride = valid point, run flats on 17's SUCK
SVT more cargo room= valid point, who cares?
SVT lower cost = not valid, you have to factor in resale value to get REAL cost.

 

Christian Wardlaw, chief editor for Edmunds.com is an amid Ford Focus SVT enthusiast. I used to have respect for his opinion, but last year when he started to trash the MINI and compare it to a modern day "Chevy Chevette" that's where his credibility went down the toilet completely. This article reflects the same "Caveats" of the Edmunds' geniuses "Too small, too cramped, too rough, blah, blah, blah" These self professed "Car nuts" this time around don't seem to GET what the MINI is all about. Of course the Focus will have more interior and cargo room, not too mention a smoother ride just because it is a bigger, heavier car in comparison to the MINI.

With the eception of John DiPietro, I think the editors came down hard on the MINI just to please his boss Mr. Wardlaw, the most recalcitrant anti-MINI individual in the car writting business.

I wonder how many $$$ in kickbacks Edmunds is receiving from Ford to put the SVT ahead of anything else. How about comparing a Cooper S against a regular ZX3 hatchback?? Or the SVT against the Cooper Works MCS??? Unfair in my opinion. Also why the heck they tested a MCS with the Sport Package and the heavier 17" runflats???? I think track results would have been much better with the stock 16" runflats and V-spoke rims. They also failed to mention the low production numbers of the MINI, the exclusivity of the car, the culture and community behind it and the excellent resale values. I guess these guys are becoming old farts that expect even "Hot hatches" to have the ride quality and trunk space of a Cadillac Deville

The conveniently failed to mention that Ford dealers have at least a 60 day supply of SVTs sitting in Ford dealer lots....no one seems to be interested in them, the rebates and factory sponsored braves to move them out of lots, the poor resale value typical of Ford products and the poor reliability history of the Focus model line (10+ recalls since it was introduced in late '99).

Yeah Edmunds named the MINI "The most significant new car for 2002" award last year, but rest assured that Mr. Wardlaw was not part of it.

This is yet another review that shows how clueless the Edmunds' body of editors really are and how willing they seem to be to twist stats so their "Favorite" car always make it to the top.


BOYCOTT EDMUNDS!!!

_________________
'02 Cooper CVT
On order: '04 Cooper S (Est production date: 9/5/03)

 

Seriously...I was a little surprised... Sporty hatch that's too sharp and sporty? You want something softer, you buy something softer. You want sporty, you buy something firm and sporty. Now I'm not the bigest 17-inch runflat fan (I can't wait to replace them), but if you're comparing sporty cars, then evaluate on sporty merits, yes? If you want soft, work for Consumer Reports.

And the British link from mobygjc is pretty cool; check it out...

 

A: the focus has no style, sorry, but if its classy you want go MINI, street cred might get you so far witha focus, but its still a ricerboy fantasy, the mini will ALWAYS be classy.

B: The MINI was NOT designed to be just a sport hatchback,,, tehy self proclaim the car to be more, it a everybody kinda car, a little sport,but safe, a little luxury,but utilitarian, a little rough, but slick, a little family, but mroe suited to the needs of a roadster lifestyle, it a grocery getter, and a roadrunner... and it sdoes all thoe things well... the Focus will always be for a 18 yr old boy who can't talk his dad into getting him a mustang.

C: The mini will always make you smile, whether your laughing at it or with it...teh focus jsut doesn't have kind of reaction... its just a antoher car, and that all it will ever be.

 

The SVT is not a bad car.

However, this story is stale beer:
last year SCI (Sports Car International) ran a 4-car hatch comparison between SVT, MCS, Civic SI and VW GTI. MCS=1st, SVT=2nd, GTI=3rd, Si=4th. I give SCI much more credibility than Edmunds.
However, who comes out on top is largely a matter of preference in terms of importance of various criteria applied. The SVT has more room, a more compliant ride, and is not a bad car. The MCS is the better sports car no doubt, but has harsher ride and much tighter interior, and rear seats are not nearly as useful.

It's a matter of choice. Both are good cars, but for me the MCS is the winner, and that's what matters. That's why I bought it!

 

I think that comparing 2 cars of different sizes based on the roominess criteria is pretty stupid. Buyers of these type of vehicles are not looking for soft ride qualities or tons of back seat room. If that is the top criteria, then there are several choices in the market that address those needs.

To criticize the MINI because it can't carry 5 people or golf clubs with the seats up or the 'harsh' ride quality is very silly. Some of he Edmunds people have a bone to pick with the MINI since day 1 and they are the only auto "Journalists" that seem to be totally infatuated with the SVT. Sure the SVT has its merits but a more direct comparison would be the VW Golf GTI for example as both cars are of similar size and weight. How that SVT would fare against a MCS with the John Cooper Works package or even a Mitsu Lancer EVO???

In Europe the MINI's NCAP classification is a "Supermini" meanwhile the Focus, Golf, etc are classified as "Small Family cars", so these cars obviously don't belong in the same size and weight classification.

I still contend that Edmund's is full of contradictions...last year they made the MINI one of the most significant cars of the year and yet on every review it gets faulted for being what it is. I betcha anything these people has never seen or even been inside a Classic Mini...that is one TINY car in comparison to the BMW MINI.

Bottom line is, the MINI has collected more accolades and awards than any Focus ever will. Having owned 2 Ford products in the past I still contend they are rolling junk of the first kind. The discussion topics in Edmunds.com related to the Focus and Focus SVT confirm my suspicion that this car even with a $3K rebate and hefty dealer discount is a total and complete rip-off. Just read the complaints of current SVT owners with stalling SVT's, check engine lights and replacement parts on national backorder. Ford dealers' service depts are the equivalent of the bottom of your toilet bowl.

 

I was close to getting a Focus SVT, as my brother works for Ford and I could get a deal on it. I would go for the "eruopean package" that changes out a lot of things I did not like, like the headlights. They even came close on the color.

 

I've talked about the Focus on this forum a couple of times. I drove one and was impressed with the smoothness and especially the ride quality. Also, I have a Ford dealer 5 miles from my house and a MINI dealer 200 miles from my house.

My guess is I would have no more problems with the SVT than with the MINI.

With that said, I'm willing to pay thousands more and accept the inconvience of a distant dealer because the MINI is a cool car that I will be proud to own.....the Focus flunks the "looks good in my driveway test" so badly that it's good points can't make it more desireable to own than the MINI.

 

Speaking of contradictions:

About the MCS
But about that SVT:
And so for their "scientific ponytail test" , that's a little too cutesy for me.

 

I know nothing about the Ford Focus - I'm even more biased against Ford than I was against Bimmers so I didn't even consider it - but I must say I'm confused about the supposed poor ride quality the accuse the Mini of having, even with the 17" run flats. Guess I'll have to test drive a 16" wheeled car just to see.

I love feeling the road and responding to the road. Sure, I hope the potholes don't jerk me around too much and like a well-padded seat and all, but feeling the road is a must for a sports car or sporty car. The reason I won't even consider a Lexus or Toyota is because they have such a bouyant ride quality, with tons of roll on curves. They make me seasick! Carsick! whatever you want to call it.

I'd rather feel the occasional bump than the weird see-saw that more luxurious/less sporty cars give.

 

My best friend (he's 27, I'm 28) has a new SVT Focus with the European Appearance package, and I have a new MCS fairly loaded.

Over the long road, the Euro Foci's seats are a new lesson in back pain.... The H/K stereo is WAY better than the audiophile system in the focus, save the convinience of the 6 disc in-dash in the Focus. Handling is great in both cars, but the Mini really excells in road grip, steering response and braking. I have the 17" wheels, and at times the ride is stiff..but GREAT..that's what the car is all about. If I wanted a puff car, I'd still be riding my Camry. The Focus does get points if you wanted a hot hatch and you NEEDED a large trunk or more passenger space in the back, but I certainly don't. It's me and maybe one passenger tops... no biggie there!

The electrical problem with the Focus is easily fixed... it's a problem especially with the newer units that have the HID headlamps. The Alternator is hardly equipped to handle the total load. I'll have to call my friend and ask what the heck they did to fix it..it was a simple job.

In the end, my Mini will cost less than his Focus.. but I will say this..if he puts a supercharger on his Focus, and pulleys, exaust, intake, chip etc... He will A: Be able to go much faster than my mini, even if it's modded in a similar fashion, and B: Practically drive sideways from all that torque steer!

In the end... I win!

oh, that WTF is that crazy ponytail test?? geez

_________________
I am F15EWeapon on AOL, Yahoo, Hotmail, Tccoa.com, Mini2, and MCO!!
I own and drive a July Build '03 MCS Electric Blue/White with space cloth and everthing but nav, leather, sunroof and auto wipers.

 

what exactly does this mean:

"We did experience serious understeer when the car was pushed hard through the corners, forcing us to use the emergency brake to counter the action"?

This tendency was noted twice in the article and I would like a definition of understeer. Is it a characteristic common to FWD cars and when might I need to rely on the Emergency Break for a save?

 

>>Conclusion
>>
>>SVT softer ride = valid point, run flats on 17's SUCK
>>SVT more cargo room= valid point, who cares?
>>SVT lower cost = not valid, you have to factor in resale value to get REAL cost.

I totally agree!
#1 - I'm getting the 16" X-Lites
#2 - I don't need room going to and from work - Yea, Who cares ?
#3 - the look on people's faces when they see my MINI - Priceless!

 

" If you want soft, work for Consumer Reports. " --Scooper
! Recommend that!

-.s.b

_________________
MINI: Best horse for the buck!

 

I'm not sure I care too much about what the Media says, other than I recommend they put away their childseats and tape-measures, and actually drive the d!mn cars for a change.

Edmunds did manage to gloss over the major point of their reason for putting the SVT 1st; it's squishier and slower around the track, therefore better for the average Joe Moron. They also glossed over how a more experienced driver could get much better lap times [and acceleration times] out of the MINI, further reinforcing their recommendation that drivers that don't care should get the SVT.

Honestly, the SVT never came up in my final shopping list. I drove is once upon a time, and was minimally entertained behind the wheel. Getting back into my //M3 at the time was a refreshing experience. Getting in the MINI, however, is FUN compared to the //M3.

I therefore nominate the SVT Focus as the mild enthusiasts commuter appliance.

_________________

 

>>Here it is...and the MINI comes in 2nd...

 

I agree will all that has been said... and espcially about that pony tail test.... what's that?... and most importantly why can't they attempt to use a more complete rating system (like Automobile mag).... I don't think it would change the fact that I completely disagree with what they said... but at least I'd be able to WHY they gave the honor to the SVT....

We all should have expected this though... if you've been reading their long-term test..... they are so overly cautious in avoiding how much fun the car is to drive.... like "it was fun in the twisties, but darn that cupholder, and I can't handle those bumps" ENOUGH with the ride!!! we know its bumpy.... we LIKE it! I have a VW Beetle right now that is almost as bumpy as the MINI AND the handling sucks... but nobody's complaining about that.....

They can't find anything wrong with the MINI, so they're just inventing problems... otherwise why would anyone read what they have to say? There HAS to be a problem... otherwise they're not doing their jobs....

J

 

Car reviews are always bias and subjective based largely on opinion generated by an experience of driving a lone vehicle that is supposed to be representative of a line of cars. Smart reviewers will note that this sampling error exists and which options ought to be considered that might make for a better test car. Wouldn't it be stupid to test a version that was a poor representative but indeed this is what happens all the time if the cars tested were supplied by the dealership no charge to the reviewers. If edmunds buys the car like MotorWeek does then that is different.

As a reader you always have to read between the lines for the good behind the folly. If the comparison is not fair then what would be fair. Also- take the test drive for yourself and see what works for you. In the end it is your own judgement that will decide if you agree or not.

I can tell you one thing. If I drive a Ford focus- nobody will notice it. If I drive a cooper S, I'm in a people magnet with tons of comments and looks everywhere I go. Now YOU decide how much attention you want to grab. The Cooper is one hot car and there is no denying this fact.

And comparing my MCS to the Chevy Chevette is absurd. I owned a 1978 Chevette and drove it until 1985 and put 80K miles on it. The two cars are of similar size and totally opposite character and excecution. The chevette was a total american old tech utility car- poor performance-poor gas mileage. I replaced it with a Honda Civic 5 speed 4 door sedan- excellent car. My MCS blows the doors off my old Honda which I kept for many many years.

 

I don't understand the disparity between the US automotive publications and the European ones. If you look at Evo, Car, and Top Gear magazine, the Cooper S is treated like a supercar (they've even compared it relatively favorably against actual supercars), whereas the US counterparts like Automobile, Car and Driver, etc, don't quite go that far.

If you look in back of Car magazine, you'll see their monthly list of favorite driver's cars regardless of price: #1. 911 Turbo, #2. Cooper S, #3. Ferrari Enzo, and the list goes on to name 97 other cars behind them.

The Euro magazines have repeatedly tested the Cooper S against every version of the Focus, including the RS (much more performance than the SVT), and they declared the Cooper the hands-down winner each time. They also prefer it to not only the WRX, but the RX STi and Mitsubishi Evolution. Why is it such a different story in the U.S.?

 

I've only recently begun to understand that people think my car is part of a larger set of cars: "sport compacts". Head-to-head, my baby loses out in most yardstick comparisons (MCS: 163HP, EVO: 290HP, WRX: 330HP, etc). Pricewise, it costs more than some compacts with better performance, the Focus SVT among them.

Well color me as living in a permanent state of denial! Those other rides are just cars in my mind, my MINI is a class by it's own. They're compact cars that manufacters spiced up and made sporty. My MINI is a wee car that had gobs of character and fun designed in from the start. It's the tightest, handiest ball of personalized driving fun I've ever seen on 4 wheels. I revel in the fact that it does what it does in such a small package! As cars go, you make them bigger, and damn straight you can cram more in them. I don't want that, I want my automotive companion to be the epitomy of spit-in-the-eye-of-blandness so-there automotive attitude! You've seen the movie Shrek? Well every morning, when I hit the garage, I swear I hear my MINI shouting "Pick Me! Pick Me! Pick Me!".

I might be able to drag race faster in a WRX, or impress the riceboyz with an EVO, or save some sheckles with an SVT. All are fine specimins of the "sport compact". But for me, nothing turns a trip into the grocery store into an adventure like my grin-o-matic MINI. Yep, I'm in love.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


BTW: for the record, I thought the Edmunds review was pretty fair handed. The MINI came in second, but only by a little, and that was primarily driven by cost and anti-cute decision factors. That's cool. Their major down-ticks were the lack of power under 3000 rpm, and the degree of understeer. Both exist, and many of us have taken steps to remedy these shortcomings in a near perfect vehicle. (For those that haven't considered it, give serious thought to at least getting an anti-sway bar; probably the most cost effective mod to the car, and one that puts the steering back to near-neutral without any added harshness to the ride. And I defy anyone to find a unhappy pulley owner; it can't be done).

The MINI is obviously not for everyone: many folks don't get it, don't understand it, and can't concieve of owning one. That's ok: many folks think Jerry Springer is high brow entertainment, and that the floaty ride of an Eldorado is plush.

 

>>what exactly does this mean:
>>
>>"We did experience serious understeer when the car was pushed hard through the corners, forcing us to use the emergency brake to counter the action"?
>>
>> This tendency was noted twice in the article and I would like a definition of understeer. Is it a characteristic common to FWD cars and when might I need to rely on the Emergency Break for a save?

They seem intent on minimizing the fact that the MINI finished 1.5 seconds *ahead* of the Focus on the road course. According to them, "A seemingly minute difference in the real world," (actually seems pretty substantial to me) "but several car lengths on a race track." I wonder how it did that with such crappy underwater through the corners?

This review puts Edmonds objectiviity and credibility into serious question.

It also highlights the way that the MINI just doesn't fit into any of the automotive categories. Its not *exactly* a "sports car," although it out handles a lot (maybe most) of them. Although it has a hatch back, it doesn't really fit into the "sporty hatch back" class, because its more of a sports car, and less of a hatch back than any of the cars in that class.

 

>>I don't understand the disparity between the US automotive publications and the European ones. If you look at Evo, Car, and Top Gear magazine, the Cooper S is treated like a supercar (they've even compared it relatively favorably against actual supercars), whereas the US counterparts like Automobile, Car and Driver, etc, don't quite go that far.
>>
>>If you look in back of Car magazine, you'll see their monthly list of favorite driver's cars regardless of price: #1. 911 Turbo, #2. Cooper S, #3. Ferrari Enzo, and the list goes on to name 97 other cars behind them.
>>
>>The Euro magazines have repeatedly tested the Cooper S against every version of the Focus, including the RS (much more performance than the SVT), and they declared the Cooper the hands-down winner each time. They also prefer it to not only the WRX, but the RX STi and Mitsubishi Evolution. Why is it such a different story in the U.S.?


ps: after reading the "long term" test, it sounds like it was written by a 12 year old!! And they say the same thing every month... dear lord!! "he couldn't figure out how to recline the seat, so it was uncomfortable"... hmmm, whose problem do you think that is?!?