Hello All!

On a related topic to my "nemesis" thread, I would like to share a comment I received from someone in the VW community.

I recently let my professional-VW-tuning friend drive my MCS and he said the following:

"If there was a new car that captured the spirit of the original Rabbit GTI, this is it."

Discuss!

 

Hmm. Not sure about this. I would say that the Mini almost captures the feeling of the 1989-1992 Honda Civic CRX si. The bummer is that it doesn't quite get there and has nowhere near the level of engineering that Honda had in the early 90s. I cannot say why this is, but it is sadly true.

Now, the Rabbit GTI is a possibility. But let me assure you that if you drove one today you would be horrified of just how vaguely the old GTI's steering was and how coarse the engine sounded and felt. They had a nice gearbox, but it didn't make up for its failings in engineering and manufacture.

VW guys will always tell you about the great old cars like the GTI and the Corrado were back in the day. But it's largely a ploy to keep the conversation away from VW's total inability to build a reliable car today.

As for character, it's the driver of a car that has character. It will always be the fiddler and not the fiddle.

 

it was '88-91' and had one....a '91 CRX Si. I don't think the MINI is related in any way except it's the best FWD driver's car of it's day. If Honda would bring the Type R here, MINI's game would be up

 

I bought a GTI back in 84, my very first brand new car. What a blast that car was. Very visceral, very capable compared to the machinery of it's day. Lots of mods for it too. I don't think you can compare the engineering of that GTI to todays MINI, a lot sure has changed in the past 20 years. But when compared to others if it's time it was head and shoulders above the rest in it's class.

 

I excluded the 1988 because it had oil galley issues that led to some cam issues (not unlike the Honda 500 Interceptor did in 1984) and included the 1992 Del Sol Si which Honda saw as a continuation of the CRX si.

Either way, would you say that the Mini truly represents 20 years of improvements over the si? Technology has advanced but the pure driving experience has not kept pace.

Don't get me wrong. I love my Mini and it has served me well since the day I bought it but it pales compared to some other cars (most notably the si) that I have also owned and enjoyed.

Rabbit GTI? It never measured up to either, IMHO.

 

The '88-'91 Honda CRX was a very good car for its day but it was a 2-seater not a 2+2 like the MINI. The DOHC engine was advanced for its time, but the MINI is simply light years ahead of it in driving dynamics, safety, engineering and technology. No comparison. I drove Hondas for well over a decade and I don't think you can compare a late 1980's early 1990's Honda Product with a 21st century MINI. Hondas of that era IMHO are tin cans and very few CRXs survive in my neck of the woods today. I never cared for DelSol as a worthy replacement for the departed CRX lineup. That was a girls car based on the '92-'96 pedestrian Civic platform.

While the current Civic Si sedan and coupe are somewhat going back to the old roots from the '80s and '90s, Honda needs to being here the Civic Si hatchback sold in Europe and elsewhere and the Type-R cars which have been largely kept out of the reach of American consumers for many years (Exception, the late 1990's Acura Integra Type-R 2 door hatch.).

I don't think we will ever see another FWD inexpensive 2 seater from Honda. If you want a roadster, your only choice is the S2000 that will be discontinued at the end of this model year.

 

I'm puzzled by why Honda hasn't brought out a direct competitor. I'm not confident about Mini's engineering and long-term reliability. Would have no such concerns about a Honda product.

 

It is hard to beat the reliability of the Japs. I have had my Honda CRV for 10 years now and I only replaced the front brake pad (5 years) and Battery (10 years) since new.
I doubt if any of the more expensive euros or even the exotic cars that are as flawless than Toyotas or Hondas. The Japs are mostly copy cats but they are good at it and perfects the technology in the process. There are almost 15 million VTEC engines made since the early 90s without any recall or breakdown.
Having said this, the Mini to me is in a different league. It is a car that is full of emotions, a lifestyle as many here in NAM call it, and can be easily forgiven even if it is not perfect.

 

The Japanese are hardly "copy cats".

btw, perhaps you are not aware that the term "Japs" is considered offensive and derogatory...

 

ummm...

Miata


Lotus Elan

 

Yamaha outboard: OMC upper, Mercury lowers...

 

that is exactly what I said after driving a mini foir the first time back in 2002

 

Don't think I can share that opinion - in our house we have a 1997 VR6 Golf (my dad is currently using it), a 1993 VW Cabriolet, a 2006 Jetta GLI, a 2007 VW Rabbit 4 door (near base, plus sunroof), my 2006 MCS and an old 1995 Toyota pickup forced to do snow plow duties.

The GLI has 30k+ miles (yes a baby but absolutely 0 issues), the Rabbit even less; both solid as a rock. The older 1997 VW is also low miles, only about 60k and it has had new brake pads, oil changes, a battery and one abs sensor left front wheel. Not bad for living it's whole life in salty New England. The 93 cabby is still on the original top, worn well but not leaking. Aside from perennially horrid passenger side motor mounts (changed on about a 18mos rotation, grr) the car still runs great. 100k+ miles, original every thing else but battery and tires of course.. It's not as solid as the newer ones but it's still a good member of the family. My sister loves it and she's near clueless on car repair issues and yet it manages to keep going regardless of her care

The Toyota- what can I say. 130k+ miles and more or less 'unloved' as it's dinged and such but soldiers on with nary a complaint. I had to replace a frozen right front caliper this last weekend, but the reman part was cheap, easy to find and went on with 3 whole bolts and a quick brake bleeding. Reliability champ especially given it's unglamorous life.

The VWs are all very solid cars and in contrast to some early 90/late 80 VWs I've known, none of the small trim bits have come off etc. Nice cars to drive, the GLI is pretty darn quick as well - bigger than the MINI and better gas mileage too..

'Course I have the MINI cause it just has a different character. Much more the gokart in comparison to the VW fleet and it's a nice little friend. But the VWs hold their own in many ways..

Sorry for the ramble... we've got too many cars!

 

Really not copy cats?
Sorry if I did offend some people about that word but I was only abbreviating it. We are talking about cars here, not the people right?

 

The one thing that the MINI brings that the Honda's never came close to was making a small car that "normal sized 6'4" plus" people could comfortably drive.

 

you do realize that '92 was the first year of the Del Sol right? They made it for a full 4 year cycle, with the last being the Del Sol VTEC (160hp B16)....the first R53 Cooper S had barely more power, despite being supercharged and the same 1.6L. Despite being a 'secretary's car', it was fun to drive and had great power for it's size.

I had an '89 Civic SI and then the '91 CRX Si - the Civic was the analog to my '06 Cooper S (2+2 two box design). There's no comparison really....108hp vs. 200+, airbags, safety, etc. That's the reason I sold my CRX in '03....safety. Being 6'1", my head touched the headliner...no airbags, 2200lbs, Darwin was looking over my shoulder. The MCS was a worthy replacement, though I still miss the CRX and it's responsive feel....tin can sounds and lack of LSD aside.

 

The Hp between the hi-revving B16 and s/c R53 might be close but the TQ numbers are not. That's the beauty of force fed...Tq. That feel of responsiveness is probably again due to the drive by wire calibration as oppose to the old school wire cable. The CRX is much lighter too.

 

yes, but...

Torque: 162 ft-lbs. @ 4000rpm

vs

Torque: 111 ft-lbs. @ 47000rpm

2700lbs vs. 2300lbs = less of an advantage than you might think. you do have to drive the snot out of a B16 to go fast, but that was part of it's character. Honda motors have a sewing machine precision....nobody really matches it for anything near the price. I've had 340 ft/lbs in my Subaru and yet my D16 CRX with 108hp and 105 ft/lbs of tq was more fun to drive.

HP and TQ alone a fun car do not make. There's a je ne sais quoi about some cars....a unique mix that makes them stellar driver's cars.

 

Unless the CRX or Del sol are modded, their dynamics, acceleration, top speed, passing power (80kph-120kph) will never be at par with the R53.

 

nobody ever claimed otherwise, except for dynamics, and yes, I was referring to a modded one. My CRX had basic bolt-on's....13lb wheels, summer tires, AEM intake vented through the bumper, Mugen exhaust, front and rear strut bars, Koni yellows, H&R springs, Momo steering wheel and ****, B&M short shift kit, swaybars...etc. Basic, quality bolt-ons...no ricer mods needed.

look at the other cars in these pics...all 'driver's cars' (WRX, S2000, Wrangler...not sporting, but full of character)....the CRX was still my personal favorite:

 

Trinitron, VTEC, Beta, Walkman, NSX metallurgy... There are plenty more.

 

We all agree that we all have favorites but numbers and Stats don't lie. By the way, nice car S2000.

 

The VTEC is not original to Honda, they were the first to mass produce it.

 

"not all things that matter can be measured.
not all things that can be measured matter"

stats and numbers aside, there's something missing in many cars today...perhaps it's the safety envelope overtaking us. there are many cars I've driven where the stats and numbers make you drool....yet, the test drive is underwhelming at best. '00 Audi S4. '07 BMW 335is (with and without the Vishnu mod). Nice cars. Exciting to drive...ehh...that's debatable, despite the impressive specs.

let's look at another angle that might be more telling....the performance envelope. My '05 Subaru Legacy GT wagon had $13k in mods...Brembo's, Bilsteins, BBS wheels, 310hp/340tq.....it was boring on the street. The level of performance was so far beyond what you could use on the street and not get arrested.

perhaps that's what made these cars we miss so good....you could hang them out at 9/10ths on the street and nobody would notice. Sure, ___________ (insert performance car du jour) is better on paper and ultimately more capable, but, so what? 99.9% of owners never use those capabilities daily.

 

VTEC = Honda trademark. If you mean they weren't the first to do variable valve timing, then, yes...it was used in racing for years before it was debuted on a Honda street car (NSX?).