You still don't get it..............I simply asked how would you handle the same situation as in the video. This is not hypothetical, this is a practical question. If you have a way of avoiding the same situation w/o the benefits of DSC, why not share it with the rest of us.

As to respecting you for your decision, it's just that......it's your decision. But to claim that it does no good for any of us is ridiculous.

 

Ahh Matt... at some point, we will 'safety' all of the juice out of life. I believe that the point of life is to 'live', not to 'not die'.
If we were to do this properly, human control of an automobile should and would be taken away (they're almost there), as the single biggest cause of accidents is the person holding the wheel. Period. Remove that factor and see where your statistics take you: a massive reduction in injuries and fatalities. Or move strictly to mass transit, the safest form of transportation there is.
Almost every human endevor can have technology applied to prevent accidents; virtual reality is about as safe as you can get- but I think I'd miss the the real thing.
Stupid humans will continue to do stupid things, and the only long term result is that Darwinism works it's slow and painfull process.

 

Look at higher cost performance cars. They get a range of choice about how interventionist the systems are. As for the rest of the arguments, they are straw man constructs at it's worst. you could just as easily postulate that nuclear war of widespread famin or SARS would lower overall accident rates (and they would) but that doesn't mean one should advocate them as solutions to accident rates.

Fact is in the Mini we don't get lots of choices about how the systems work, and that sucks for sure.

Most of the arguement constructs would be kicked out of a serious debate, as they move the subject under discussion. the facts are there about the increased safety provided by the systems. Others want to not use them? That's fine. But at least call the reason why one does what one does honestly. One is choosing a less safe way of driving for whatever subjective criteria one happens subscribe to. To say a) the systems don't work, b) we're all going to hell in a handbasket due to nannyism, c) I can outdrive the system d) it's not ready for prime time e) expert drivers are faster around a track with almost all DSC systems off or f) fill in ones favorite dodge here, just is off topic.

What is really interesting isn't the personal choiced that one makes, but rather the implied risk one is putting on others, as some of the avoidable accidents that will happen with the systems off will not be single vehicle accidents. So those that chose to not participate in the benefits of the system are making choices for those other than themselves......

Matt

 

At what point did this discussion turn to taking the fun out of driving............?

DSC does not intrude, aside from the agreed upon traction control, in everyday SPIRITED driving. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the time that DSC kicked in and ruined a fun drive or caused an accident. It is a very benign system.

 

The video and situation I explained about is a hypothetical situation. If you read the definitions in the links posted you would see this, now start giving speeds times distances, recation times of drivers and DSC and drivers compensation for DSC to kick in and you've got a completely different story.
I explained it and you responded saying that it was impossible yet Octance Guy explained doing something very much the same around a 5 gallon bucket, in reality not in some anitmated video in which you decide the physics of. And in my explinations I also gave other pointers for ways to avoid the situtionin the first place, as well as handling it if you were caught off guard and forced into it.
Well I never claimed that it wasn't good for anyone else in fact said several times it is very benifical for some. Do I need to quote these un edited posts for you?

 

Scott;
---> Total agreement!<--- When a car becomes just a means for traversing from point A to point B, it's gone. I own a Mini 'cuz every time- every time! -I strap it on, I start grinning, and I don't stop 'til I get out. I'd guess that most of us all feel the same way about it, which, of course, makes us a little rabid in our opinions concerning the driving experience.

Thanks for the 'take a deep breath', ScottinBend.
I honor your opinions, Doc.

 

this is the traction control, and can be modified. You CAN have the best of both worlds...
to site an instance when DSC didn't need to kick as proof that it's not a help, even to skilled drivers like you, just isn't logically sound. Would the outcome have been the same if there had been a single tire wet spot? Hard to say... And your experieces don't shed any light on the subject.

But this isn't true. The cost of smoking to society at large is very, very high, even if the health consiquences are to an individual. If you're insured, the costs are spread over the other insured people. If you're not, it's covered by an ever larger pool of people who didn't agree to your actions. This is independant of second hand smoke. Wearing seatbelts has the same effect, as the use of seat belts not only makes accidents less severe, but also lowers the costs of society at large because of the same effects as smoking. The case of motorcycle helmets is interesting, as there is NO societal benefit to having motorcyclist wear helmets, as the injuries often are then fatal, and because there are no extra costs to the public at large, the legal system shouldn't step in to mandate what is a purely personal choice. Unprotected sex falls into the first two examples, but gets a pass because of privacy issues. So not all examples are the same.

While this is a bit off topic, but I just wanted to point out that these things AREN'T all the same. If one takes the time to find out the real numbers, you may even find that your opinion on some subjects may change.....

Matt

Richard[/quote]

 

Geez.............this is like arguing with a 4 yr old about why he shouldn't eat dirt.

No one has posted any kind of experience with DSC having an adverse affect on their driving (not including the traction control) so unless you have some evidence that the system in some way has caused you harm.....

 

Yes, I could have the best of both worlds, but I'm not worried or scared. Everyone should go take practice driving to see how their car reacts when its on the edge of losing control. I'm not saying I'm an expert driver, but I do admit that in the rain yesterday around midnight I had my DSC off and intentionally practiced some ebrake turns on a deserted section of my neighborhood because well--I could. What happens when you intentionally try to upset the balance of your MINI? Try it when it's safe, not when you're in a panic situation on the freeway with your life or someone elses on the line.

I know how my car reacts under less than ideal circumstances. The benefit of DSC is that it helps you cope with driving situations and maybe saves your butt.

I'm not preaching to anybody whether they should or shouldn't use DSC. It's obvious that you are very passionate about this, and that it's your right to talk about it--but much like religion, I don't need preaching by anybody about the benefits of "joining" the club.

As for my example--I simply cited a real world example of a situation that happened. It hadn't rained in weeks--well until the past few days, and as an alert driver, I would have adjusted my driving appropriately. Had there been a freak wet spot on the freeway that I just managed to drive through as I swerved around the bucket, well I guess, I would have responded as instinctively as I do when I'm autocrossing...maybe I would have plowed into the "cones" or maybe nothing. The fact is--I cited one example where driving experience to me is of more value than being a lousy driver and putting your faith in the electronics to do the job. And yes, I think that the majority of SoCal drivers--not talking about MINIs-- are pretty bad drivers.

As for the freedom of choice comment--I knew that you would get riled up by it and respond with facts to disprove it....

 

The only time DSC should be turned off is during track events, to allow for better initial torque and acceleration out of corners.

If you run without DSC during normal driving, you are overconfident and deserve to have rubber bumpers applied to your car, and a neon yellow helmet slapped on your head.

 

(my bolding)
But this is a false choice. At least personally, I haven't heard anyone claim that it's OK to be a lousy driver as long as you have <insert alphabet soup here>. Were people BETTER drivers before DSC was invented? I think not. The point is, it doesn't matter if you're excellent, or a neophyte, DSC does something you can't do (i.e. braking one wheel.)

On the way to Lake Tahoe this summer I had a 'maroon' in the next lane who failed to pay attention to slowing traffic. Instead of slowing, he slammed on his brakes (breaks ) and swerved into my lane. Being attentive (in the middle of a five hour drive) I swerved and avoided him, everyone else, and spinning out in the middle of I80. (FWIW, I was very happy with the emergency handling of my MCS!) I never saw the DSC light flash (not that I was looking at it!) but having that 'nanny' in my back pocket didn't hurt anything.
It's a true choice for Cooper drivers, but for S owners (R53 at least) we either get the bad (ASC) or we get the good with the bad (DSC/ASC).

True, if people believe it makes them invincible, that's a bad thing. But given accident rates haven't increased (AFAIK) since electronic stability control came out, that doesn't seem to be the overriding case.
That may or may not be true with the AWD/4WD who seem to think that said TLAs provide both superior traction AND braking in the snow.

 

I agree with uRabbit. Nuff said.

 

Might as well get used to DSC now cause in a few years it's gonna be standard, (and probably not defeatable), on everything.

I think not wanting to use DSC is mostly an ego thing, as in "nothing can control my car better than me."

 

just unplug one of the wheel sensors. The system will detect the fault and turn itself off.

For those that really hate it, that will put a stake through it's heart for sure.

Even after the 2009 phase in (all cars must comply by 2013). FWIW, the amount of cars sold with DSC already is greater than the amount required by 2009, so the car companies won't have to do anything. But since safety features are quite a marketing issue for a lot of buyers, I'd expect faster adoption than even the legislation mandates.

Matt

 

Yeah, The DSC works great except in snow.

 

Gee..............and that's the kind of conditions it was made for.

Don't confuse the traction control with the other benefits of DSC (as explained in the posts above)

 

The owners manual recomends turning the DSC off when starting off in snow.

 

That would be to turn off ASC, since turning off DSC turns off ASC as well. DSC has nothing to do with starting off. It only kicks in when you are underway and sliding.

The 2007 manual says:
Is the text in the 1st Gen manual different? This just says when rocking the car to free it, or with chains. Not when starting out.

 

I'm fully convinced that DSC could have saved my wallet from some serious pain.

So here's the story. Went out with some friends the other night, and I met up with a friend of a friend, who's a big VW guy (you know the type, VW tats and all, haha) and we had a drink and shot the ****. Showed him the MINI, and we had lots of good conversation about future mods (he's got a big turbo sitting in his garage that's heading for his MKIV Jetta.)

At the end of the night, we both must have felt pretty upbeat and excited, after discussing going to track events together and etc, and we were both pretty aggressive with our driving in the parking lot and going out. He lit up his fronts as he pulled out of the lot we were in, and I flicked off DSC and did the same, with a big smile on my face. We then pulled up to the main interesection, and stopped at the light. When it turned green, we both pulled away, and with my DSC off, I must have chirped the tires a bit as I went away. I chuckled to myself, feeling good about the night.

It didn't last long.

All I hear is "aww dude" from the backseat. My friends were quick to notify me that the the 3 cops at the gas station across the street had witnessed our excitement and pulled me and the Jetta over right away.

Got chewed out by the cop for doing what he took to be an insult to him. The racing stripes and checkered roof probably didn't help with my situation.

Driving away with the Reckless Driving ticket, I couldn't help but think that having DSC on would have made that slightly aggressive take-off turn into the crawling start that everyone here hates on.

Granted, I could have also just taken off much easier, but mistakes happen, right? And DSC wouldd have just said "No!"

Ah well, live and learn, yes?

Stupid NJ with stupid points.

 

hey man, you learn from stuff like this, we all do. just don't be so cocky thinking you can never get pulled over.

 

It's true, although I would say I was being oblivious instead of cocky...

 

DSC is downright dangerous. It robs power away when you are trying to make a left or right turn on to a busy street, even on flat dry pavement - in situations where I never lose traction in vehicles that have no traction control... and are even rear wheel drive! The more systems we have taking over the driving for us, the harder it is to control our vehicles... see also clutch hold system in late model MT BMWs. If people can't learn how to do a hill start they shouldnt @#$% be driving a manual transmission.

 

Funny I never seem to have this problem........but then again I can modulate the throttle and accelerate as fast as needed. DSC in and of itself is not the problem......it is the agreed upon sensitive traction control that we all have problems with. The whole DSC system is in fact a very beneficial option to have. It is capable of assisting you in regaining control of your car.

But of course you already know that because you have read this entire thread........

 

It's all about the dumbing down of drivers. Before long all we'll have to do is turn the key & read the paper on the way to work. Oh wait, now on some cars we don't need to do that labor intensive job of turning the key.

Scottie I've read the whole thread.

 

......and you are all ready there