There has been some discussion about whether MINIs (and JCW) will be collectible in the future. Here are some good articles on that and you can make up your own mind.

As usual, if you don't like the source or whoever wrote the article, you might not agree with them.

Just some interesting reasoning behind what makes cars valuable.

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...ctober/08.html
"... most collectible (read: "valuable") cars tend to have one thing in common: They tend to be rare."

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/06/29/w...a-classic-car/

Classic and collectible are not the same thing

http://www.kenrockwell.com/bmw/collectible.htm

Remember, collectors (and most people) want a new car; not one that you're personalized for you any more than they want your graffiti on their fence. ... Lose Your Receipts Add Lots of Aftermarket Accessories

 

Buying a car with the hopes that it will appreciate in value is usually a losing proposition. Consider that $5000 placed in conservative investments (9% annual return) in 1966 would be worth about $160,000 today. How many $5000 cars from 1966 are worth $160,000 today? Not many, and no one knew 40 years ago which ones they would be. Plus, there's the cost of storing, maintaining, and insuring a car for 40 years.

If you're concerned about resale value, then sticking to reversible mods and keeping the original parts is a good idea, but if I really wanted to do something permanent, I wouldn't let fears about resale value stop me.

The odds of any MINI (even the GP) appreciating faster than a good mutual fund over the long haul are slim at best. And besides, if you're that good at predicting future trends, hit the stock market and make some real money!

Scott

 

even Yugo's are collectable if they work.

 

I don't think anybody would argue that. It's a depreciating asset if its used.

The point of this was that there were discussion of MC40s, JCWs, GPs, and even plain MINIs someday being collectible. There are two problems: rarity and aftermarket. Rare means very low numbers and many ppl immediately "mod" something. That's a big no no if you want it to be collectible.

 

In 99.99% of the cases, they're depreciating whether you use them or not. And I agree about rarity. In the collector-car world, 2000 cars isn't "rare", or even 415 cars. "Rare" among mass-produced cars is having one of less than a dozen 1971 convertible Hemicudas. The problem is, the reason that combination is so rare is that no one wanted that configuration in 1971 - who wanted the most-powerful engine with the heaviest body? Same thing with the Superbird / Charger Daytona. The dealers couldn't *give * those cars away when they were new - now they're $100k+ cars.

The funny thing is, the MINI that I'm about to take delivery on probably has a better claim to "rarity" than any of the limited editions. Mine is one of the 147 2006 convertibles that was mistakenly given a 2007 VIN. I haven't seen it yet, but according to the memo I got from MINI, the incorrect VIN is going to be crossed-out on the shock tower, with the correct VIN stamped next to it. I have all of the documentation from MINI, including a form letter that is to be signed by the dealer service manager documenting the mistake in case questions arise later.

Does this mean that I'm going to hermetically seal my car in case this factory goof makes it valuable someday? Not bleedin' likely...

Scott

 

Agree with everything you said there. In fact, the commentators at last Jans Barrett-Jackson said they couldn't give the superbirds away ... no one wanted the WING.

Not sure about paperwork errors. However, they do make it clear you want to keep all receipt, not touch a thing, totally OEM

 

I buy a car for how it drives and how fun and econmically feasable it is. Resale value is a non issue as I tend to keep cars until the engine don't start, agian and again and again and again. I've found many on here do the same. And even those that don't aren't always about gettign every last possible cent out of a potential buyer, in fact many just trade them in toward the next car. This is a point certainly irrelavent to the MINI; 4 or 12 thats rare, but 400 in the US out of a total 1000+ is an Army not a colection .

 

Truthfully....if we are talking about what is collectable in the eyes of DMV...I believe if the car is older than 20 years and is not your daily driver than it will be considered for colletor plates....historical means it is X ammount of years old (not sure of the value) and is only driven for serivce or shows....

IMHO...No vehicle that has an OBD port will ever be a collector vehicle...I go to Barrett-Jackson every year and my dad and I have the same discussion each year as we stare at these pieces of automotive artwork...."No car from modern day will ever be a collector...You would need a computer hacker, networking specialist, electronics guru, not to mention body, suspension engine ect ect ect."...for example imagine restoring a 2007 BMW M5 with navigation. The screen, all the Idrive software...what about the SMG transmision?

I see us (as in the collector car world) restoring the same cars over and over forever....My family has a 1954 Jaguar XK-120 Roadster....a 1961 XK-150 Coupe (purchased at 2004 Barrett-Jackson) and a 1980 MGB LE.

What does every one else think?

 

and while I don't agree that you need single or double diget production numbers, relative rarity when compared to total production is a must. But there are some notible exceptions. Look at early Mustang convertables... They made 10s of thousands each and every year. And they are both classic and collectable. But I don't think that people could have expected how successful a car it would have been. One could have predicted it would be popular, but no one accurately predicted just how popular it was to be. And despite the advertisers penchant to say "instant classic" (hows that for an oxymoron), I don't think that anyone would predict that the car would still be produced now, over 40 years later.

We all cherish our new cars, and hope (project?) that our choices are wise and just, and of course we'd get the reward of increased value! But that is rarely the case.....

But I don't agree with don't change a thing. For things like wheels and tires, they will get even less wear if removed from the car... Document, yes, save every part and reciept, yes.

Do you think people expected the F40 or Enzo to be collectable? Those yes. Did people think the 74 Indy Pace Car corvette would be (I personally think that it was the worst Corvette ever), I 'm sure they hoped so...

Matt

 

In my state, I think any car over 25 years old that has not be altered can get historic plates. Any car more than 20 years old with 1000 or less made (all models) can get one. Any car more than 20 years old and no longer made ... all of these "unmodified".

You can also get a Street Rod Plate ... over 25 years old and altered.

I dont think "Historic" means collectible though.

As to OBD port that means from 96 on when they stopped doing real emission checks with a sniffer.

Dunno about that. 25 years from now computers are so ubiquitious that will eliminate all cars. I cant believe NO car would be collectible.

Dr. O. The thing is with mustangs is that sure they are collectible but they dont fetch the big bucks. Somebody stashed away a MUSTAND indy pace car and it brought nothing. After garaging it and pay for insurance, etc, he lost money. A similar Camaro got a few dollars more.

Big bucks are going to the big blocks, 427, 426 Hemis, 429s.

As to the wheels, if you KEEP the original wheels, thats cool. I think he meants if you get rid of them. I didn't copy the entire article but to elaborate a little

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"if you can resist the temptation to screw with your car and keep it original you'll have a collectible in a decade or two. This is because every other turkey with a transportation car is out "improving" it, and after 10 years the most unique and unusual car will be yours, exactly like it left the factory.[/FONT] The example I go back to is this year auction they sold two almost identical 85/86 (something like that) 930 Turbos. One went for about original price and it had an aftermarket exhaust. The other for maybe $20K more, all OEM (and detailed).

 

the Austin Mini is very collectable

 

I hope both owners enjoyed the hell out of those cars, because investment-wise, they both lost out - big time. And that was with a high-end sports car from a famous manufacturer.

Scott

 

I'm guessing they did. These were not garage queens but had some miles on it. Basically went for used car prices (or a bit above).

 

as to what it will fetch.... But the idea about investing in cars for future $ is a bad one all around, unless you can buy hyper-rare cars or cars that are already collectible and classic, you have money to burn, and have lots of nice space to keep your gems....

And I'd agree that most cars now won't make the cut in any way or form, either from all being based on common platforms (like most consumer cars...) or there just being to damn many of them (like the new Mini....)

Even if one were to grant that the original Mini is both collectable and classic, it's hard to find an example that would have justified the opportunity costs when compared to other investments...

Matt

 

Dr. O, you are correct and that is a shame

The real investments are really big bucks. In fact, I think the $1M cars ... they use a buyer ... and they go to private collections or museums.

 

I would never buy a car with the mindset that it would actually be an investment. If I am afraid to drive it in fear of reducing it's value I don't want to own it. While collectors cars are impressive, I think half of the "masterpiece" goes completely unappreciated because these cars generally just sit in a garage and aren't driven. Last night I was watching Barrett-Jackson and they had a MB Gullwing. While it was a gorgeous work of art, I would be too afraid to drive it on a daily basis so it wouldn't be worth owning IMO. It is important to preserve these cars because they are a part of history, but I'm more interested in driving than running a museum.

 

As an owner of a "rare/exotic" car, I always find this topic interesting. If I bought my DeLorean new, I would have lost out if I sold it today. However, since I purchased mine about 3 years ago, I would come out ahead if I sold it today. With more people that wanted the DeLorean when they were kids and now being able to afford them, the demand has gone up. The values typically go up about $1K each year (for the last 5 years).

Of course the price will eventually get to the point where demand will equalize with supply. Also, don't forget that those that want a certain type of car are typically in the same age group. I remember reading an article that talked about how pre-WWII vehicles are starting to drop in price a bit because those that wanted them are starting to die off.

For now, I'm enjoying my "investment". Should I ever sell it, I certainly don't expect to profit from it. Restoring/driving my DeLorean has been a hobby for me, not a money maker.

 

I think right now, the one exception to the thing about modded cars, or car that have not been left unmolested are just about ANY Mopar, 66-70 fastback mustangs (any model, from standard sportsroof to boss and shelbys), chrome bumper c3 vettes, and lot of the strange cars, like the Buicks and the oldsmobiles from the late 60's to early 70's.

Any of these cars, wether they were left bone stock or modded to hell, wether they were hemi cars or 6 cyl cars, wether very clean original cars or rotted out, seemingly unrestorable cars, it doesnt really matter.

Just in mopars alone, the challenger I sold 2 years ago for $7k would be worth 30% more every year, according to an article in Mopar Muscle. And that car needed everything. It was a whack pack job doent by a southern shop just to make it look good. it had a late 70's motor, wrong trans, no interior and none of the electrical worked.

Just about any of the cars above fetch pretty good money, no matter what condition it is in.

 

I resent being called a "turkey" for "improving" my MINI. And I'm quite sure that in 10 years it will still be unique (except for that crazy Canadian copy-cat , j/k ).

I also realize that as anything other than a freakish side-show, my MINI is basically worthless to the general public. To the only critic who counts, though (me), she's priceless.

There are so many different ways to define "value".

 

Your correct. Just take a look at the insurance rules. You can't drive it anywhere except to shows. It just sits in a garage or museum. A LOCKED garage. Think of it as a safe.

Enjoy your car dude .... YOU have something unique. Besides if you go 88 mph you get to go forward in time

We're talking two different things here. Your talking about cars using modern parts to restore. They are basically used cars and get peanuts for them. Usually they don't even get into an auction because the minimum price is 35K, I believe. I think we are talking about two totally different leagues here.

If they ever get to auction, the annoucers quickly point out the "modern" parts and they just sell as used ... restored cars. Mods are quickly pointed out as well ... not the same thing.

Catchild ... OK, just for you. Otherwise I'd say

 

I'm not sure i catch your drift.

Almost any car that will be considered a collectable will need to be restored to stock. Unless its a RARE survivor, which are uber rare and hardly ever come up (and when they do, they usually get restored anyways) it will need to be restored.

Wether with modern restoration parts, or, in some cases, like the 73 Roadrunner we just finished, you will have to go back and find another car in very good shape, thats isnt worth as much as the car to be restored, and scavange the lesser car for parts for the more valuable car. We paid well over 3 thousand dollars for a set of original quarter panels. No modern parts here.

I would hardly call some of these cars just "used" and try and say you could only get peanuts for them.

Ive seen an unrestored, rusty, bondoed and fiberglassed 70 AAR Cuda with only a numbers matching 340 go for well over $30k.

The car sold for almost $100k when restored.

What about the 71' Hemi Cuda convertable that had fenderwell headers and a chevy style scoop that sold for $1.2 million, then was restored and sold for $3 million!!!!

Depending on the restoration, a very nicely restored car can go for as much as or more than the unrestored original car.

Even restomod "clone" cars are getting more money than the cars that ae restored, but restored to stock, and not cloned to look like a car that would be worth more.

Last year at B-J, a stock, restored Belvedere with a 383 went for something like $45k, but a cloned Roadrunner with a Hemi went for something like $65k, i think that says something.


I dont care what any articles say, i'm just telling you what i know from my day to day experience restoring these kinds of cars.

 

What I was trying to say ... maybe didn't say it well ... was that the cars that are truly collectible ... big money cars $1M cars are usually totally OEM. No modern parts. No manufactured parts from a machine shop. Only parts from an old warehouse or junkyard or whatever.

Cars that use modern parts never sell for the same value as fully OEM parts.

That was the point and my observation from watching many hours of Barret-Jackson. When they do show the cheap cars in the under 50K range, they are mostly "used" cars ... cars clearly driven and used or better cars (e.g., small block Vettes) that have some non OEM parts.

The $2M Hemi Cuda Covertable sold because only two were made. Rarity is very important regardless of what any one says. As someone else mentioned ... Superbirds go for big bucks because dealers couldn't sell them. No one wanted them new. Rare cars.

Last year at B-J, a stock, restored Belvedere with a 383 went for something like $45k, but a cloned Roadrunner with a Hemi went for something like $65k, i think that says something.

All that says is everyone is drooling over 426 Hemis. Big blocks always go for bigger money and 65K really is peanuts for the truly collectible cars. Check out the prices at the Pebble Beach auctions .... saw that once and the cars make BJ look cheap!

BTW, I am in no way disparaging or saying there isn't money to be made in restoring the cheaper cars ... only that I was discussing the higher end cars that the "monied" buy for their musuems ... That's what I meant by "different league"

 

Chows,
It seems like you keep moving the goalposts when it comes to what "collectible" means. If you're talking about Pebble Beach-level cars, like Bugatti Royales and Hispano-Suizas, then I can answer the "collectible MINI" question right here and now:

By that definition, no MINI will *ever* be "collectible". Not the 'S', not the JCW, not even the GP. Not my "1-of-147" VIN-mixup Cabrio. Not even the handful of Silk Green/Emerald Green cars that made it into the States.

The production numbers are simply too high for our cars to rise to that level, and it won't matter one whit whether we modify them or not.

Scott

 

I wasn't trying to ... I originally was discussing the $100K - $2M dollar cars at BJ. All the cars sold at BJ for under $100K just dont look like any kind of collectible investment. They are ... usually truely used cars ... restored cars using modern parts ... or unpopular cars nobody wants.

I guess by collectible I really meant something that sits in a locked garage or musuem and only come out for a concours or vintage event. The big money ... not the cheap stuff (relatively speaking of course)

Those that buy the $50 - $100K muscle cars, I bet, are just Baby Boomers who can now afford one and will probably drive it. OTH, you'd be insane to drive a $2M Hemi Cuda covertable one of only 2 made.

 

They made 7 1971 hemi cuda convertables.

5 automatics, 2 manuals.

Should I list their colors and options oneach of the cars too?