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Seriously? What the hell?

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  #151  
Old 04-22-2008, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete Moss
MaxN has hit the nail right on the head. This is why 9 departments show up. According to the news article 50 cars had "paperwork" problems ( nonmatching numbers?) ,( improper registeration?) Window tint, or missing front license plate. 20 cars were towed. This is what everybody on this thread was "dancing around", and would not address. Thanks, MaxN for bringing it up. Do you know if the car you refer to was one of the 20 that was towed from this late night meet?
I think you'd be pleasently surprised how many cars have "Paperwork Problems". There are quite a few cars out there that have engine VIN's that don't match the car's vin. Probably 20-30 right on these forums. All that means is that the car has a block that didn't come from the factory. Automatically assuming that a non-matching VIN = Stolen is the very reason that stuff like this should be outlawed.

It's fairly common in the import tuner world to swap motors around for something lighter, stronger, faster, etc. Not everyone saves receipts for said transactions, appearently it's more important than we thought.
 
  #152  
Old 04-22-2008, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rustyboy155
I think you'd be pleasently surprised how many cars have "Paperwork Problems". There are quite a few cars out there that have engine VIN's that don't match the car's vin. Probably 20-30 right on these forums. All that means is that the car has a block that didn't come from the factory. Automatically assuming that a non-matching VIN = Stolen is the very reason that stuff like this should be outlawed.

It's fairly common in the import tuner world to swap motors around for something lighter, stronger, faster, etc. Not everyone saves receipts for said transactions, appearently it's more important than we thought.
Actually no.

Read this

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc4161.htm

Engine or Motor Change: Distinguishing Vehicle Identification Number

4161. (a) Whenever a motor vehicle engine or motor is installed, except temporarily, in a motor vehicle which is identified on the ownership and registration certificates by motor or engine number or by both the motor and frame numbers and subject to registration under this code, the owner of the motor vehicle shall, within 10 days thereafter, give notice to the department upon a form furnished by it containing a description of the motor vehicle engine or motor installed, including any identifying number thereon and the date of the installation. The owner of the motor vehicle shall also submit to the department with the notice the certificate of ownership and registration card covering the motor vehicle in which the motor vehicle engine or motor is installed and evidence of ownership covering the new or used motor vehicle engine or motor installed and such other documents as may be required by the department.


(b) Upon receipt of motor vehicle engine or motor change notification and other required documents, the department shall assign a distinguishing vehicle identification number to motor vehicles, other than motorcycles or motor-driven cycles registered under a motor number or motor and frame numbers. When the distinguishing vehicle identification number is placed on the vehicle as authorized, the vehicle shall thereafter be identified by the distinguishing identification number assigned.


(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section or any other provision of law, whenever an application is made to the department to register a replacement engine case for any motorcycle, the department shall request the Department of the California Highway Patrol to inspect the motorcycle to determine its proper identity. If the replacement engine case bears the same identifying numbers as the engine case being replaced, the original engine case shall be destroyed. A determination verifying proof of destruction shall be made by the Department of the California Highway Patrol.
In other words, if you change the engine, you tell the DMV that you have done it and you PROVE ownership of the new engine.

if you cannot prove it and you do not tell the DMV, the assumption is that the engine is stolen. Pretty simple really.
 
  #153  
Old 04-22-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MaxN
Yes it was.

Details are a tad vague - sorry - but I only know the guys father through my ex-employer and therefore the details are sketchy at best.

But it seems that the cops where matching the Vehicle ID /Engine numbers to the numbers registered at the DMV and several people where 'caught out'. There was at least one person that had a different VIN to plates mis-match (stolen car) and two others that had engines of questionable backgrounds.

I understand that there where a number of other tickets handed out, but the real coup was the stolen car and parts.
Good post MaxN. Thanks for providing information that I think many on this thread were wanting to know.
 
  #154  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MaxN
Actually no.

Read this

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc4161.htm



In other words, if you change the engine, you tell the DMV that you have done it and you PROVE ownership of the new engine.

if you cannot prove it and you do not tell the DMV, the assumption is that the engine is stolen. Pretty simple really.
Somehow I doubt most people have a clue about that law. I had no clue about it and I'm fairly well read when it comes to stuff like that. I guess a lot of people need to head to the DMV!
 

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  #155  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MaxN
Actually no.

Read this

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc4161.htm



In other words, if you change the engine, you tell the DMV that you have done it and you PROVE ownership of the new engine.

if you cannot prove it and you do not tell the DMV, the assumption is that the engine is stolen. Pretty simple really.
EXCELLENT POST, MaxN. This is of use by many people and is why these web sites exist, IMO Sharing of good information. This information may be of real value and protect folks from taking a $10,000 hit as your friend did. Rustyboy155 makes a good statement as well that having a reciept is a good idea.
 
  #156  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:11 AM
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It's quite sad the amount of work we have to do simply to enjoy our cars.
 
  #157  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:13 AM
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What I want to know is how the cops found out what was "stolen"? Did they go up to everyone and ask them to pop their hoods??

I'm sorry, but I'd tell 'em to go choke on a donut and get a search warrant.

Coming from the infamous Honda scene, engine swaps are as common as intakes are on MINI's... it's what THEY do. H22 from a Prelue to an Accord... a B18 into a Civic, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean they're stolen.

And yes, the law is the law... but a little common sense IS needed!

Call me a bit too libertarian (I'm talking philosophy, not politics here), but I'm not sure why I need to answer to a police officer for the LEGAL purchases I make.

Perhaps I should sew a star of David on my car? I know other societies have used this to monitor it's citizens...
 
  #158  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 22CooperS
What I want to know is how the cops found out what was "stolen"? Did they go up to everyone and ask them to pop their hoods??

I'm sorry, but I'd tell 'em to go choke on a donut and get a search warrant.

Coming from the infamous Honda scene, engine swaps are as common as intakes are on MINI's... it's what THEY do. H22 from a Prelue to an Accord... a B18 into a Civic, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean they're stolen.

And yes, the law is the law... but a little common sense IS needed!

Call me a bit too libertarian (I'm talking philosophy, not politics here), but I'm not sure why I need to answer to a police officer for the LEGAL purchases I make.

Perhaps I should sew a star of David on my car? I know other societies have used this to monitor it's citizens...
Indeed, as I said, it's a shame the hoops we have to jump through to enjoy our cars the way WE want to.

We're not far off from the second part of your post!
 
  #159  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:21 AM
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I wasn't bringing politics into this. Government discussion in general I suppose could be considered political discussion but whatever. This thread would then classify as political if that were the case. Sorry I chimed in. Guess I'll just troll so I don't get banned.
 
  #160  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rustyboy155
It's quite sad the amount of work we have to do simply to enjoy our cars.
I agree.

It is a shame that there has to be laws passed that are aimed at the illegal sales of stolen good.

It is a shame that some people are dishonest.

It is a shame that we have to jump through hoops to protect our property.

It is a shame that the small percentage of the population that disregards the laws of the land make it difficult for those of us that like to bend the rules a tad.

It is a shame that there has to be laws to protect us from our own stupidity.

It is a shame that there has to be speed limits.

It is a shame that there has to be CARB rules to follow regarding modifications to the engines subsystems to effect smog emissions, but without them we would be back to the days of 30ft visibility on the 405.

Yes, it is a shame that we have to be cautious when it comes to mods, but the current (California) rules are the rules that we have to live by else we invite trouble.

However, in this real, non idealized, world in which we live.......

If you want to get mad with anyone, do not get mad with the law makers, nor even those that uphold the laws, but get mad at the people that cause these laws to be required.

Get mad at the car thieves, the drunk drivers, the people that cannot and will not take responsibility for their actions and many, many others......

Yes it's a shame.....
 
  #161  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:30 AM
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Is there a full moon today?
 
  #162  
Old 04-22-2008, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete Moss
MaxN has hit the nail right on the head. This is why 9 departments show up. According to the news article 50 cars had "paperwork" problems ( nonmatching numbers?) ,( improper registeration?) Window tint, or missing front license plate. 20 cars were towed. This is what everybody on this thread was "dancing around", and would not address. Thanks, MaxN for bringing it up. Do you know if the car you refer to was one of the 20 that was towed from this late night meet?
The thing is, most of us don't have a problem with Police inforcing laws. It's that they came in and FORCED everybody to open their hoods. If they had information about "a" car then they should have addresed that "car". About the matching numbers thing, could you imagine if the Police were to start checking the Hot Rod and Classic cars shows, it would be a joke.
 
  #163  
Old 04-22-2008, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rustyboy155
There really aren't any guns in the UK, you're more likely to be stabbed than shot. Honestly we'd be a lot better off here if we adopted the same practices. Violent crimes don't exist in the same percentages that they do in the US (We have some of the highest crime rates in the world for violent offenses).
Wrong.

Since instituting their all-out gun bans, violent crime has skyrocketed. The proof is in the pudding, and the brady-campaign propaganda supported by the sheeple that believe their lies (sorry, but I must include you in this list for now) only make matters worse. An armed society is a polite society, that is our most prudent reality.

One source here:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html

This may sound off-topic at first, but it is only an extension of the original post. Heavy-handed government control starts small and ends big. Sure, all of the stuff on my cars are legal. If I were searched illegally while parked in a private lot, I should escape unscathed. That doesn't, however, justify the illegal search.

Because any of us here would not go to jail, and others would, shouldn't cause us to ignore the problem at it's root: illegal search and seizure violates our civil rights. Nobody should have their rights violated in this "great nation."

It seems that history was poorly taught, though it doesn't surprise me considering the public nature of our school system. Remember: our forefathers stood up in arms against the King of England for similar violations. We now have a strong and powerful nation, but it is becoming more and more like the Empire we fought so hard to push away.

Don't be complacent. Justification of the violation of ANYONE's civil rights is un-American. Are you a patriot or not?
 
  #164  
Old 04-22-2008, 02:45 PM
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Another view from here

http://www.pe.com/localnews/rivcount...1.4234d9b.html



Riverside police may have put a dent in local street racing Friday when about 100 officers raided a parking lot on Valley Springs Parkway, where suspected racers are known to congregate.

Police from Riverside and other agencies shut off the exits to the lot to inspect more than 150 vehicles. Officers wrote a similar number of citations, including 48 for illegal modifications common to street racing, according to a police news release.
Twenty vehicles were towed from the scene as part of a crackdown funded by a $503,000 grant from the California Office of Traffic Safety, according to a police news release.

Police spokesman Steven Frasher said officers had been monitoring illegal activity in the lot for weeks. The large number of people who received tickets for illegal modifications common to street racing confirmed officers' suspicions that the lot was a hotbed of street racing activity, he said.

"Almost every vehicle that was there, even if they weren't street racing, they were ... an audience," Frasher said, adding that the lot was full of skid marks left behind by racers.

Neighboring business managers at Hooters Restaurant and John's Incredible Pizza are glad the problem was addressed. At times, they said, cars speed through their parking lots, threatening the safety of others and scaring away customers.


"They seek a big parking lot and ours is huge," said Jim Finigan, director of operations at John's Incredible Pizza.


He was seconded by Chris Guillet, manager of the Riverside Hooters Restaurant, who said problem drivers speed through his lot, barely avoiding collisions. While he was grateful for the police intervention, "I think it just moves the problem to another area," Guillet said.


Police organized a similar raid in 2006 at the Target store on Tyler Street. They believe street racing has killed at least two people in Riverside in recent years, including Reyna De Leon, 38, in 2006, and 14-year-old Carlos Cisneros in 2007.
"By its nature, (the street racing problem) can get up and go someplace else," Frasher said. He added, however, the problem may at least be solved at the Valley Springs Parkway location. "We were able to send a strong message that ... we are cracking down on this activity and we won't tolerate it," Frasher said.

He added that police will continue the fight against street racing, but he declined to give details.

On Friday, cars ranging from broken-down Hondas to shiny, new Ford Mustangs and BMWs lined up for the police inspection. Some car owners were ticketed for replacing a small exhaust pipe with a larger one that makes the car run louder.

John Ferrier got a "fix-it ticket," he said, because his car's exhaust system was too noisy. And yet the 21-year-old Moreno Valley resident said he was happy the police were cracking down on Honda drivers. He blames them for reckless maneuvers such as "burning out" and "doing doughnuts."

"That's what attracted the police attention," Ferrier said. "I'm glad they're here to stop people before they do something stupid."

Michael Calderon, 22, of San Bernardino, stood in the parking lot as his 1995 Honda Civic hatchback, which he bought for $600, was loaded onto a tow truck.
Police impounded his car because officers believed some of its parts were stolen.
Calderon said he bought the parts from a reputable business.

"It's devastating," said Calderon, who spent $20,000 on car improvements. "That's my soul right there. This is the worst night of my life."

And it wasn't over yet. He still needed someone to pick him up -- but first he had to find a friend whose car passed inspection.
 
  #165  
Old 04-22-2008, 05:11 PM
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Succubs: you said it well.

I did a paper earlier this year for college about how essentially public schools are in place to misinform, "dumb-down", and assuage the population into one giant naive, group of sheep.

Quite compelling evidence, really! It makes you wonder...

This thread depresses me. Makes me realize how screwed we really are.
 
  #166  
Old 04-22-2008, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JIMINNI
The thing is, most of us don't have a problem with Police inforcing laws. It's that they came in and FORCED everybody to open their hoods. If they had information about "a" car then they should have addresed that "car". About the matching numbers thing, could you imagine if the Police were to start checking the Hot Rod and Classic cars shows, it would be a joke.
Jiminni---The information I read on this thread said that the police spent several weeks investigating this problem. Given that, I am sure they knew just what they were looking for. They know how to conduct their business.
I think it might be a very good idea to check cars at hot rod and classic car shows, auto auctions, etc. The laws apply to everyone.
 
  #167  
Old 04-22-2008, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Moss
I think it might be a very good idea to check cars at hot rod and classic car shows, auto auctions, etc. The laws apply to everyone.

Really??? And the next step is to start searching people at the street corner. Monitor their phone calls, whatever is necessary to catch them "breaking the law."

My friend, your draconian proposition is exactly what this country is NOT about. We are all guilty until proven innocent. You will not be searching my private property on a whim. If the owner of the parking lot in question wanted to stop the gathering of car enthusiasts on it's property, it could have done so by informing the group. The police would only be necessary to inform any stubborn visitors of their status of trespass.

The prudent thing for the police to do in a situation like this would be to watch and observe anyone driving recklessly, racing, peeling out, etc. Unmarked cars are great. You can watch the offender commit his offense, follow him off the property, stop him, cite him, confiscate his car if necessary.

Violating the rights of 100 or more citizens who ARE NOT breaking any laws is inexcusable. This is the USA, we have a Constitution and Bill of Rights.
 
  #168  
Old 04-22-2008, 11:00 PM
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Wow, this thread is fun! I love the give and take on what constitutes necessary laws for safety and security, and what boundries our liberties are constrained to.
Of course, I cherish Ben Franklin's observation that is in my sig (Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.) and I agree with him wholeheartedly.
We live in the longest existing democracy the world has ever known. But like all things in the universe, entropy works it's ways, and things wear down.
What's amazing to me is that it has lasted this long, but we as a people have refreshed it from time to time. The problem, of course, is that it never recovers to quite the same level so the result is a slow, inevitable decline.
We have gained some over time, too: the courts have bestowed some protections to the rights of the innocent (and guilty!) individuals. But overall, in my opinion, the final result is a net loss.
I think the heros of our revolution (Sam Adams, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, et al) would be stunned by what we've given up in exchange for protection from the bullies of society. I am.
This all because I don't believe that police should be allowed to go randomly searching in hopes of finding a reason to arrest someone. That smacks of all of the societies I find repugnant.
-skip-
 
  #169  
Old 04-22-2008, 11:33 PM
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"the final result is a net loss"?! Yeah, that whole "civil rights" thing was a major step backwards.

Allz I knowz is that a car with matching numbers is going to be worth more in the long run, so don't be swappin blocks, people.
 
  #170  
Old 04-22-2008, 11:55 PM
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"Civil Rights" happened 40 years ago, sir. And the fruit didn't fall very far from that tree. Try being Hispanic in the southwest... guilty until proven innocent.
I never implied that breaking the law (and ignorance is no excuse) is in any way right. What I don't agree with is assumption of guilt because they were gathered together in the parking lot (do you think the police would have come down on a gathering of 80 year olds in their Cadillacs?) and search without reasonable cause. Did they have any evidence of illegal cars, or was it just a fishing expedition? Simple question, really.
-skip-
And oh, yeah, LynnEl: full moon, fer sure.
 
  #171  
Old 04-22-2008, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tazio
"the final result is a net loss"?! Yeah, that whole "civil rights" thing was a major step backwards.

Allz I knowz is that a car with matching numbers is going to be worth more in the long run, so don't be swappin blocks, people.
Your statement is built upon the premise that all anyone should care about is the ultimate value of their car. These aren't capital investments we're talking about, it's a friggin car.

There are plenty of reasons to swap motors out. I for one have no interest in waiting 2 months while some engine builder fixes a blown motor of mine when I can simply buy a "Shelf" motor and have it installed in a week.

When was the last time you bought a car and dismantled it piece by piece to check the VIN on each part?
 
  #172  
Old 04-23-2008, 12:02 AM
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skip, you, sir, are what we in the business call a curmudgeon.
 
  #173  
Old 04-23-2008, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rustyboy155
Your statement is built upon the premise that all anyone should care about is the ultimate value of their car. These aren't capital investments we're talking about, it's a friggin car.

There are plenty of reasons to swap motors out. I for one have no interest in waiting 2 months while some engine builder fixes a blown motor of mine when I can simply buy a "Shelf" motor and have it installed in a week.

When was the last time you bought a car and dismantled it piece by piece to check the VIN on each part?
Methinks ye take me too seriously, young Rusty.
 
  #174  
Old 04-23-2008, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by tazio
Methinks ye take me too seriously, young Rusty.
Perhaps so my friend...
 
  #175  
Old 04-23-2008, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rustyboy155
Your statement is built upon the premise that all anyone should care about is the ultimate value of their car. These aren't capital investments we're talking about, it's a friggin car.

There are plenty of reasons to swap motors out. I for one have no interest in waiting 2 months while some engine builder fixes a blown motor of mine when I can simply buy a "Shelf" motor and have it installed in a week.

When was the last time you bought a car and dismantled it piece by piece to check the VIN on each part?
A car is an investment and is worth much less when you cobble it up. Take you piece meal car to the Mini dealer and see what you are offered in trade.

If you replace your engine, you have to follow the law which has been posted here in this thread. Get a reciept as well. I believe the police will inspect your car to be sure you do not have a stolen motor and protect you from losing your money. Play by the rules and you won't get burned.
 


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