First off, I want to say, unless you have a reliable audio shop whom you deeply trust and who are experts in custom subwoofer/car audio installation AND are not complete idiots – DO THIS INSTALL YOURSELF. Normally I try and do the work on my MINI myself but being completely unfamiliar with sub systems or car audio, I decided to let someone else do it. After a nightmare of a botched installation job at a local car audio shop, I highly recommend that you attempt the installation yourself. If you have 1.) Time 2.) The basic mechanical know-how and are equipped with a drill, torx bits, wrench set, wire clipper/crimper and a few other things listed in Kevin’s guide, you should be absolutely fine. Even better if you have a friend that has some experience with wire-tapping, persuade him/her to help.

No one takes better care of your MINI than yourself, and this job does require attention to detail.

There was a laundry list of faults that my retarded shop left me with but luckily I met up with Kevin soon after and we discovered all of them:

1.) The sub wasn’t bolted down properly to the chassis of the car because the shop “did not like to drill into chassis’s”… and after a head-on collision I could potentially be decapitated by the box if my seats were down, yeah that’s safe.
2.) The mini amp was put on the wrong side of the boot when it was specifically designated to go on the passenger (right) side because there is much more space affording an easier install and more ventilation.
3.) The power was initially drawn from the left rear speaker which would have been disastrous because it caps out at 100 hz out and is **** to begin with.
4.) A minor issue stated by Kevin - The sub was and still is currently drawing from the Left channel only, but I am not missing anything as far as sound quality from the bass spectrum.
5.) There is a small dent in the sub cone, idiots must be to blame for that as well.
6.) My biggest quip – they drilled into the box twice, first with the wrong set of screws!! (sheetrock screws), even though the proper set of screws were provided… I was furious. So now there are unwanted holes underneath the rim of the speaker but the gasket is doing a pretty good job at plugging them. I cannot feel any air loss from around the speaker.

So far, I have had the sub in for a few days and It sounds pretty good. I am kind of skeptical to say that it sounds phenomenal just yet because I have nothing to compare it with and I am not too familiar with subs! I have run basic tests from 10hz – 300 or 400+ hz, and played some hip-hop, techno and rock MP3s which all sound good. After listening to a few of these songs up high I may have noticed some stuttering of the sub but that may just be due to poor quality mp3s.

I have to emphasize that all of my songs are not 320kbps and many are at 160-240kbps. This alters the level of bass and how clear/crisp the output is. Kevin has recommended 240+kbps for best results.

The design was definitely the most evocative factor for me. I like the clean completely hidden look. The false floor looks just like the OEM boot floor and now the angle of the boot floor and folded rear seats is perfectly flush. There is no longer any step off.

All that said, I think the IA sub is a great product for the price and I will comment again after some more listening. I am meeting with Kevin for him to judge how the final sound is soon.

** The settings on the sub were at 90 cross over with 40-50% gain, -1 or -2 bass setting on the factory radio.




Sorry for the dirty appearance, this is after I bolted down the sub...


I will post a link for a youtube video on here shortly, however like all of you know a video of the sub in action does not speak words for how it really sounds in person. You can see some of the stuttering on lower quality songs or it may just be because of the shitty install

 

Totally agree. Kevin's instructions are so good that someone with a little knowledge can only f#$k things up. I did exactly 0 thinking and followed the steps carefully. Six hours later I had super clean bass and a big smile on my face.

 

Yeah, I might need a new box, we'll see.. can you let me know if yours sounds like mine once the video posts?

 

I apologize for the quality of the vid/sound, I uploaded it as an HD vid to youtube but it could look better, taken with Iphone4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQIkHSlwafg

 

Tough to tell on the sound quality, but it appears the sub is moving properly. Are you able to notice an increase/decrease by adjusting the left and right channels at the amp?

 

Tough to tell on the sound quality, but it appears the sub is moving properly. Are you able to notice an increase/decrease by adjusting the left and right channels at the amp?

 

Great video, goth. Although I can't hear the bass on a computer, I do like watching that cone.

I don't get audio shops. Isn't that ALL they do??? They drilled through the enclosure??? And didn't want to drill into the car? How on earth did they ever get the amp to even fit on the driver's side? You said it - nightmare.

I'm sure Kevin will be a huge help. He's great that way. I almost wish we could put together a list of REPUTABLE audio shops by state. Let's face it - if a shop can't get through this install with Kevin's instructions, we should know about them.

 

I totally agree... At the time, Kevin had no recommendations on where to get it done, so I figured if my place did a good job, he would finally have a go to place... what a mistake. Once he finds a reliable and consistent place I'm sure many MINI owners would be interested here in NY. I know in some states they have shops that specialize in strictly MINI customization and modding, covering the whole spectrum including car audio... now that would be great out here.

 

You don't need a new box. Relax. In fact, if you're going to complain about possible leakage on the sub you should have demanded they silicone the mounting screws since they will leak FAR more than the ones that are now covered by the sub.

Also, with the way that sub is installed there is ZERO chance it would "decapitate you" in any accident that wouldn't kill you on impact anyway.

I agree that they should have tapped both rear speakers for signal but they may have had a good reason to mount the amp where they did. Did you ask them?

Last, you complained that they used the wrong screws to mount the sub, which, by the way, would have had zero effect on the sub's performance, but then you chastise them for NOT drilling more holes into the box and car to mount it how you wanted it done? How are they supposed to secure it without drilling into it?

I know it seems like I'm beating you up about this but I did this for a living for 15 years and nothing irritated me more than people that had no idea how to even begin an installation telling me I was doing it wrong. As you've learned this stuff isn't rocket science, especially with an installation as basic as this one. As I always told those customers, If you're going to complain about the work, do it yourself.

 

Let me make it clearer, I have a right to complain.

I did think putting silicone in the previous holes was a good idea but I haven't done it yet. What do you mean by mounting screws? The ones that mount the speaker? or the ones that mount the box to the boot? There are no air leaks at any points right now. At the time I didn't want to unscrew the sub speaker again because I did not think it would be good for the wood to unscrew it again and screw it back into the same holes due to the tight channel it creates the first time.

There was absolutely no reason to mount the amp on the driver side, they just DID NOT read the instructions - which clearly said passenger side. The way the amp fit in the drivers side compartment was ridiculous. I don't even know how he managed to squeeze it in there. The paneling around it therefore was not flush and causing everything to bulge out. Kevin snapped a pic I will try and post later. Some of the plastic snaps wouldn't hold either.

The first time they drilled into the box and turned the sub on, there were massive airleaks all around and the sub was stuttering so they unscrewed it, rotated it and screwed it in again with foam underneath (and the ring of foam wasn't even continuous!) This was a retarded move. Kevin told me it was because of the fact that the screws were wrong - that the seal was not adequate the first time. The spacing between the rivets on sheetrock screws are larger than the screws he provided. And why did they use the wrong screws in the first place!?!? The guy later said that they weren't provided. WTF, they were in the damn bag with everything else he used to do the installation. Kevin and I found all 8 in the bag and replaced them into the same second set of holes they created. Luckily the correct screws were the same width or a I think a little bigger than the screws they used, BUT I am not sure about that and that sucks because I may have to get wider screws now. Also the screws they used were silver sheetrock screws, way to long and NOT black. Simply for aesthetics, black looks better. Obviously you have to drill again, I didn't chastise them for that. They were wrong for using the incorrect screws and it DID made a difference.

Lastly, I was exaggerating about the decapitation, but not having something that big bolted down is idiotic, just like not having your seats attached to the chassis. The "BASIC" instructions as you said clearly stated that the sub needed to be bolted to the car and it came with all the appropriate mounting supplies.

It was just a lack of actually caring about their work and doing things right, never again... and you're right I should have done it myself. Just did my driving lights and feel good about it.

 

This is true if you are doing the work for free. If you are being paid and given clear instructions (and the Integral Audio install instructions are quite clear, I followed them for my sub install), then the customer has a right to complain if the work is not done as expected/instructed. Having worked as a consultant for years, I know that the customer is not always right. But when the customer is wrong, you should at least let them know what the issues were and the reason for your choices... beforehand if possible.

In this case, if the installer had a problem with the recommended amp location, signal source, installation hardware, etc, then they should have discussed it with the customer. It seems more likely that they just did not use the provided instructions.

 

First, before I even get started let me say that I don't want you to think I'm trivializing your experience or countering just to be contrary. I'm simply providing insight into why things may have been done the way they were or correcting some bad information you've gotten.

With that said, here we go.

I meant ALL the screws. The only way to make the enclosure 100% sealed (or as close as it can get since the sub itself will leak a little bit as the surround and cone will never be a perfect seal) is to add silicone to ANYTHING that breaches the wood. Taking the screws in and out doesn't hurt anything if done correctly. Also, that's one of the reasons the shop used the screws they did. Drywall screws (sheetrock screws) are used pretty much industry-wide because they are just about the best option when screwing directly into something as porous as MDF as that's what they were designed for. I don't use them but I don't use MDF either as it's too heavy, too porous, and too hygroscopic for use in a car.

There IS a good reason to mount the amp there. It's a MUCH shorter run for the signal cables. The panel not fitting correctly would have kept me from mounting it there but there is a reason they did it. Good idea, bad execution on their part.

Ok, I'm not sure who "Kevin" is, but he clearly doesn't have a great deal of background in fabrication. You want to know why the sub leaked? Hint: it had NOTHING to do with the screws. It was because IA pulled a bonehead move and coated the sub mounting area with a textured surface. There shouldn't be ANYTHING between the sub and it's mounting surface. No paint, not textured material, no carpet, nothing, except a foam gasket. It looks on the IA site like there is a very thin foam gasket, IME, however, foam that small will not seal very well on ANYTHING but bare wood. The length of the screws had nothing to do with it. For ideal secure you WANT your screws about twice as long as the material they're screwing into. This is because they're tapered. You need to get the screw past the taper to get maximum grip and a better seal. As for the aesthetics, I agree. I'm not a fan of silver screws on a black sub. If the screws went it, hold the sub securely, and there's no leaks, the screws are fine. Don't go imagining problems that aren't there.

Let me ask you this, do you secure everything you put in your car? Yes, this is a a big, heavy thing and can be more dangerous that say, a cooler, but you have to remember that it's not just sitting on the floor, it's sitting in the well. That captured fit will hold it in place very, very well. I would have secured it because that's how I do my installs, but I can see why they didn't. Also, judging from the reaction you've had about extra screw holes for the sub, can you honestly say you wouldn't have gotten upset about screws for mounting brackets or screws into the chassis?

It wasn't a lack of caring. It was about money, pure and simple. Your car being in their bay took away form their ability to serve their customers. I, for example, would not do an install for someone that didn't buy at my shop. Here's why. I don't know anything about your gear. In this case I do as Arc has been a sponsor of mine for almost a decade and I know their entire staff, but that's an aside, really. Once you, as a shop owner, do an install using outside gear, you just married that car. If ANYTHING goes wrong, no matter how far down the road, you're going to take the car back to the shop and demand they fix it, for free, even if the issue has NOTHING to do with the installation.

I agree, doing your own work is one of the most satisfying things you can do with a car. Whether it's an installation, detailing, or repair, it's very rewarding.

Again, don't take this as an attack. Just some insight into the thought processes, and installation routines in a typical retail shop.

 

Or it's possible that they've done it before and had no problems. I can't say. I'd have followed the direction simply because they're there. Well, that's not true. I'd have turned him away before ever getting to the install.If I DID choose to do the install, I'd have done it as instructed.

This was a case of a shop trying to get it in and out as fast as possible.They absolutely should have talked to the owner though. The only real issue I see with the install is the amp placement. The sub was installed correctly but the shop had to fix the poor choice to paint the entire enclosure instead of of taping off the mounting area. That was IA's fault.

 

Wow, this turned into a great post. Our friend quality_audio is a perfect example of why I always try and do my own work. Not only do most shops/installers do sloppy, subpar work, but when they do they seem to like to circle the wagons and explain why sloppy and subpar is the way to go. Kevin at IA audio produces a quality product that a well trained monkey could install. There is no reason for a "professional" to rethink what a talented installer has already clearly thought out.

PS, my box doesn't leak at all.

 

Does Kevin do installs? Is his shop in Brooklyn?

 

It's not about circling the wagons. I even said, more than once, I would have done it as the customer wanted. There were some points that the OP is simply wrong about. He has every right to be upset that the amp wasn't installed as asked, but all the complaints about the screws... unfounded. If the enclosure was built correctly and the sub had a properly prepared mounting surface there would have been no need to add ANY extra foam to get it to seal. Blaming the seal on the screws is beyond misinformed.

If it would make you feel better I'll be more than happy to post up some of my "sloppy, subpar" work.

 

"Kevin" is the president of IA. Not only does he have a firm grasp on audio design, but I'm quite sure he as an equally good grasp on fabrication. Kevin used my MINI to spec out the enclosure that goth has now and he also installed mine. He also created the instructions and photos as he installed my set-up. I have no issues with my enclosure - in fact, it ROCKS!! I attribute that fact to 2 things: Kevin knows his stuff and he took the time to install mine correctly.


What they didn't do was follow the instructions. The L brackets were provided and there were clear instructions on how to secure it.

Well that makes me feel a lot better... In this case it was goth's $$$$$. Not only does he have a right to complain about this install, I think he should post up the shop so none of us go there. Period.

quality_sound, I can appreciate your need to share what you have since you've been in the business and know the ins and outs, but you shouldn't feel the need to defend this shop. They didn't do a very good job...

 

+1. Please, no thinking. Just follow instructions and be careful.

 

Maurtis your comments are well-received, thank you.

Thanks redduc, glad to hear your system is bumpin' right. I think mine is pretty good now, just can't judge it confidently enough until I listen to it for a while longer and listen to some other sub systems when I come across them.

Maybe I still did not do a good job at describing the seal problem. A picture is worth a thousand words but Kevin has the pic on his phone... The guy who installed it put foam between the screws but it wasn't placed correctly. If you or I were to put foam in between the sub rim and the box we would put it in between each screw and fill the gaps completely between each screw in a circle. This guy slapped a couple of pieces of foam tape with huge gaps in a non-continuous fashion. Simply didn't give a s#$@! and you are correct, probably was fed up with spending longer on the job than he thought he would.

Adding the extra foam was only done because using the initial set of sheetrock screws did not get a proper seal for some reason, I came into the room right after when they turned on the system for the first time and you could feel the leaks easily. After that, they added the foam but incorrectly. Then later when I met up with Kevin, we peeled off the foam and put in the kit screws and it was fine...

I think Kevin is pretty damned solid on his knowledge base of fabrication being that he is the President and designed the whole thing. Aside from the JL audio stealthbox with the 2 8" subs which are not hidden and twice as expensive if you buy the HD amp.. there aren't many out-of-the-box mini cooper enclosure systems as far as I know. I like the IA sub, I just wish I had a better experience initially.

Instructions are given for a reason.

 

I wish bro!, he only designs and does R&D, doesn't do installs but was willing to do mine over at his space. I don't think it will really be necessary at this point though.

Let me know if you know of any audio shops that you 100% trust with your ride... I will also ask Kevin again because he is designing front and rear speaker packages as well for the MINI and we could use a go to shop in NY.

 

Albie,

Glad to hear your system is what you expected it to be, I am happy with the IA sub too, I just wish I didn't have the cheated feeling... but no point in complaining anymore, I love my car and my sub!

 

Wait, they put the foam on BEFORE they installed it? Ok, that was a bonehead move on their part. Especially since the sub comes with a gasket on it.

The screw thing is a non-issue though. I guarantee you the screws they used had nothing to do with the leaks. It was the excessive foam they used. Nothing else.

If you're feeling adventurous and you REALLY want to get the sub sealed well, pull it out, install some hurricane nuts from McMaster-Carr, remove the paint or whatever they box is covered with, lay down a single bead of strip caulk around the lip of the opening and use some #10 bolts to install it. If you have access to some fiberglass resin and Rage Gold body filler you can make a "milkshake" and coat the sides and seams on the inside. Airtight won't even begin to describe it at that point.

I wouldn't worry about it's performance. It's a sub and it's in a car. It's very easy to get subbass that will put anything in a home system to shame.

 

Gothamdoc has every right to be upset - these guys butchered the installation in ways that there is simply no excuse for. Anyone who considers themselves a professional wouldn't even begin to justify the installation if they saw it. It is as simple as that. Furthermore, I spoke with the installer by phone - he didn't have even a basic grasp of electrical concepts and still managed to muck up the installation even after I gave him specific verbal instructions on what to do (and what NOT to do). Retail car audio shops have been in steady decline for over a decade now - it is a tough business to make money in and hiring qualified help at the low wages the industry can afford to pay is tough.

I accept responsibility for the the trouble Gothamdoc went through - I should have a list of qualified installers for major US cities and I just haven't had the time to compile one yet. Until I do IA will begin performing installations on a limited basis for anyone willing to travel to Brooklyn. I will also help vet any shop that a customer is considering using for their installation.

A couple points of clarification:

1) The enclosure MUST be mounted to the vehicle using the included mounting hardware. Not doing so is a safety risk (and is detrimental to the audio performance of the subwoofer as well). Let's use a head-on collision as an example - say 50mph into a brick wall. Your rear seats are down (or you have a rear-seat-delete kit). The rapid deceleration that occurs during the collision causes the nose of the vehicle to dive and the tail to lift. This lifting motion will send the enclosure up out of the shallow boot well. It is then free to travel at nearly 50mph right into the back of your head. The same thing would happen in a rollover. Your odds of surviving a 50mph head on collision in a modern vehicle with airbags are pretty good. The odds of surviving that impact to the back of the head? Well, why bother worrying about it when it is an unnecessary risk? Please, attach the enclosure properly using the hardware that is included.

2) The screws that were used by the shop were oval head sheet metal screws (not drywall screws) - completely wrong for the purpose. The threads are too shallow and too close together. Of course, drywall screws would have been almost equally as bad. The proper screws - the ones that were included and ignored - were pan head deep thread screws specific to the purpose. Even a course thread drywall screw has a thicker shank and shallower thread than a proper deep thread screw. Drywall screws are designed with a low TPI and moderate thread height which allows them to be driven quickly and have good holding in the soft-wood studs that drywall is mounted to. The real problem with using a drywall screw though, is that the bearing surface of a drywall screw is a parabolic cone, also called a "bugle" head. The proper screw for mounting this speaker needs a flat bearing surface. Additionally, the screw holding power of a substrate has little to do with porosity (which is a measure of the percentage of void space). It is determined by the shear strength, compressive strength, tensile strength, and deformation mode of the material. For what it's worth, the next iteration of this subwoofer system will use threaded inserts and machine screws. Not because the sub needs better holding, but because that method is a bit more idiot-proof for situations like the one Gothamdoc had to endure.

Rest assured that every piece of this system is as carefully considered and engineered as the screws - this includes basic things like the paint and gasketing, as well as more advanced details. If anyone has any specific questions or concerns about ANY part of any system, please don't hesitate to send me a PM and ask.

 

Agreed, pictures would have been great since in his original post nothing sounded horribly wrong, more like it wasn't done as he asked. As more detail came out because of my posts it has become clearer that wasn't the case. Even now, until you mentioned the wiring the only really unsafe thing mentioned was the enclosure not being secured. The rest sounded sloppy, but not incompetant.

Agreed.

I dare you to provide a single shred of evidence to back this up. In fact, in most SQ comps we try to isolate the enclsore from the car (while still being secured) to prevent any resonances from altering the sound.

It will NOT fly forward at 50MPH. The majority of the impact force was used lifting the enclosure out of the tub in the first place. The simple fact that the enclsosure is in the tub provides some mechanical securing. Not to mention the trajectory at that point will carry the enclosure more up than forward. You' dhave ot hit that wall going a hell of a lot faster than 50MPH to dislodge your enclosure and also send it flying all the way to the front of the car in a straight line so it could even make contact with your head. At the speeds necessary for that you'r be dead on impact anyway. Basic physics here.

Agreed. It SHOULD have been bolted down, but it's not as dangerous as some people think it is. I've seen the results of head-on collisions and enclosures that were not secured and while there was some movement, skull-crushing distance and velocity didn't occur. As a manufacturer I understand it's a CYA thing for you, but the old "the sky is falling" routine isn't needed. We can just both agree it should have been done.

Agreed. If he had said that in the first place I'd have agreed then. Narrow thread screws have no use in soft woods.

Not so fast. Other than your choice of head (I also use pan heads, BTW, typically Robertson drive), the thread spacing of a drywall screw is MORE than adequate for a sub of this size and weight that's also facing upwards. There ARE drywall screws with pan heads. They're just harder to find but both Fastenal and McMaster-Carr carry them. While I would not use a typical tapered head head screw, the audio industry survided for decades doing so and they continue to do a serviceable job in many installations.

I think this is a very good idea. For the reasons you mentioned and also because it provides much more clamping force, providing a better seal, while alleviating the worry of stripping the wood.

As I've already said, would you consider leaving the sub's mounting area unpainted? I know for mass production it's easier to paint everything but we both know it can't do anything but help the sub's performance. Another suggestion, if I may. What about Birch instead of MDF? Other than the cost, there isn't a thing I can thnk of Birch won't be better for. In a Mini, the fact that it's lighter would be of enormous benefit.

I applaud your willingness to do the installations and vet installers yourself. Too many manufacturers are simply worried about sending as much product out the door as possible, customers be damned. Rockford Fosgate is probably the biggest company to fall because of this. Best Buy was the worth thing that ever happened to them.

 

I had the system installed and it sounds amazing with cds too bad i dont own any. Now that i ahve a system i guess radio quality sucks in general unless u replace radio. I installed a new sirius system and it sounds very good but for some reason like all other sirius systems the volume only goes so high. Should i expect same volume issue with mp3 players? Im gonna have to go buy cds because the system deserves it and its only half done. Cant wait for part 2 soundstage!!!!!!