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RE trail braking: I've read both for FWD cars. Do it and don't do it. Dunno
Like a lot of things with setting up and driving a car, there is no one right answer and likely there are a lot of interconnected “parts” to deal with that tend to be ignored with that “one” answer. Trail braking on a FWD is dependent largely upon how you have the car set up. In the extreme, just as as example, a FWD car setup with a large RSB and a small or no FSB will want to swap ends if one tries to trail brake deep into a corner. There will be no traction in the rear to keep that from happening.
BMW/MINI designs in a bit of understeer into their cars. I know the R56 hatch best, so using them as an example, the Base MINI has the smallest sway bars and the greatest proportion of roll stiffness in the front of all the MINI suspensions. This will create the most understeer. With each successive suspension option (eg: Base to S to JCW) the swaybar size goes up by 1mm front and rear. By adding 1 mm to both the front and rear bars, the proportion of roll stiffness moves more to the rear with each successive 1mm change. That, is a 16mm RSB becomes proportionally stiffer with a 1mm change than a 22mm FSB becomes with a 1 mm change. Moving the proportion of roll stiffness more towards the rear will decrease the understeer the car will have. Yes, they made changes to springs and shocks too, but the sway bars are the easiest for me to describe. But safe to say, these changes are made with the same thoughtfulness as the sway bars. And there are no gross changes that will result in a tendency for snap oversteer that my first example would have.
So I believe this will be true for the GP3. There is no reason to believe MINI would change their philosophy on setting up the GP3. It will likely be dialed in to have a bit of understeer; likely less than the JCW with the Pro suspension (coilovers), but I expect it will have some. Based on my experience with both my R56 with both a big front and rear sway bars and my F56 with the JCW Pro coilovers, these 2 car will trail brake heavily into a corner.
Understeer is not a bad thing if you know how to use it. If you follow the writings of Randy Pobst at all, you will know he is not a fan of car that tend towards oversteer. He has written a number of articles on this subject for the SCCA magazine. His point is you can brake latter, get better turn in and better acceleration out of a corner, if you use the understeer to your advantage. Part of that advantage is being able to trail brake. That said, not ever corner needs trail braking. But I would say, if you need to brake heavily for a corner, that is likely a corner you can trail brake into.
Originally Posted by DavidPinAZ
Also, it wouldn't surprise me if the GP3 was a bit slower out of the corners. When you let the car shift for you, it doesn't always do the best job.
I watch the video of one of the BMWs and they were letting that shift on its own and it did really well. It seems that BMW/MINI missed the mark on the GP if that is the case. But it still, why couldn’t the drivers do better with manually shifting it? Tis a mystery...
Originally Posted by DavidPinAZ
RE trickery: I was referring to the fact that it looks like a GP3 getting prepped for some TCamerica racing. I'm curious what they're doing and why they have a single exhaust instead of the dual that the GP3 comes with.
Gotch Ya....
As for exhaust, that is probably an allowed mod. A single outlet make sense for weight (I know, not much but it counts). On my JCW the muffler is obscenely huge and the flow has to take 2 right angle bends for it. Dumb design for performance. Likely something to do with noise restrictions. The Milltech exhaust is much better looking in that respect; much more like the R56 exhaust.
Last edited by Eddie07S; Apr 19, 2021 at 02:15 PM.
Reason: Fix typo
I watch the video of one of the BMWs and they were letting that shift on its own and it did really well. It seems that BMW/MINI missed the mark on the GP if that is the case. But it still, why couldn’t the drivers do better with manually shifting it? Tis a mystery...
The BMW/Getrag DCT shifts really well on its own if you don't want to do it yourself. The ZF 8HP is probably only better than the DCT in multiple gear downshifts, in any other situation it's slower. I haven't driven a GP3 but every 8 speed Aisin I've driven hasn't been on the same level as the ZF.
The BMW/Getrag DCT shifts really well on its own if you don't want to do it yourself. The ZF 8HP is probably only better than the DCT in multiple gear downshifts, in any other situation it's slower. I haven't driven a GP3 but every 8 speed Aisin I've driven hasn't been on the same level as the ZF.
I would expect the DCT to be quicker, but the point C and D made is that the GP transmission didn’t know the right gear to be in and it was shifting at odd times. I would think that would point to the computer control (software) of the transmission vs the transmission itself. If that is the case, it would seem that MINI missed the mark on the software. Not sure if I am missing something here and it might not be that “simple”. None the less it is disappointing if C and D’s comment is accurate.
I would expect the DCT to be quicker, but the point C and D made is that the GP transmission didn’t know the right gear to be in and it was shifting at odd times. I would think that would point to the computer control (software) of the transmission vs the transmission itself. If that is the case, it would seem that MINI missed the mark on the software. Not sure if I am missing something here and it might not be that “simple”. None the less it is disappointing if C and D’s comment is accurate.
Sorry, by on the same level as the ZF, I meant in every way, not just shift speed. I doubt it's a software issue, it's just the design of the Aisin. If C&D is comparing it to the PDKs, DCTs and even ZF 8HP in the other cars they're driving during the lightning lap, it's just not there.
Yeah, I don't understand the whole "Shifting for ourselves isn't much better and doesn't improve times. " bit. It most certainly does improve times and is much better. Just a bizarre take, really.
Also, it looks like the Mini JCW Racing team has some trickery going on...
This might be part of a lightweight Titanium system. But where is the diffuser , so that they use that extra space ? Did you know that a diffuser improves with an corresponding rear wing ?
That also improves trail braking, did you ever ask yourself why 260mm brakes at the rear , for trail braking GO Kart is the King.
Last edited by Clutch Wotan; Apr 20, 2021 at 07:32 PM.
This might be part of a lightweight Titanium system. But where is the diffuser , so that they use that extra space ? Did you know that a diffuser improves with an corresponding rear wing ?
That also improves trail braking, did you ever ask yourself why 260mm brakes at the rear , for trail braking GO Kart is the King.
That is a great looking end link for the sway bar...
On the MINI GP3, MINI calls that rear panel either side of the exhaust outlet a “diffuser”. Incorrect I know. It is not a true diffuser like the one the GP2. MINI used the same nomenclature the optional JCW Pro rear panel; they call it the “JCW Pro diffuser”.
Great thread and good information, thanks guys. Being an O. F. my racing days are over, but I still love good twisties. We took our F56 JCW with some mods and our GP3 to a town nearby to give them a good bath before a seasonal wax job. We had a spirited backroad trip to say the least and the JCW hung in there decently, but the GP3 just had too much oomph, and prevailed, however, on a technical route, like the tail it might be a different story. We will discover that next week in Tennessee and North Carolina. We do love our minis and they are still our favorite fun cars. However, I still think I would like a Lotus Elise!
Photo op!
Last edited by KYDan; Apr 23, 2021 at 02:47 PM.
Reason: Added photo
I still think Mini should have altered the sheet metal panels around the wheels for the wider tires instead of sticking those black plastic on there (presumably to save money). It sure redifines the shape and look of the Mini compared to the very similar Clubman/Countryman JCW models.
Mark is up against some Major competition in this class. This will be a real tell for the car. While i really hope it goes well for them, this is the first race with this car (I think) and there may be a few teething pains
Yeah, I'm not expecting him to place this weekend, and not for a lack of talent. Mostly because, like you said, teething pains and all that. I really hope they give some details on what changes they made other than the obvious one (stripping the car, roll cage, etc). Mostly, what wheels, any ECU changes, any transmission changes, etc. Things us normal folk might be able to do . They have some pics and video on their Facebook pages if anyone is interested.
I noticed that it was just published late yesterday, which explains why I couldn’t find anything, this included, when I searched.
It makes sense they would clone, or as they say - “inspired by” - the GP. The GP makes available parts that would otherwise be prohibited. The engine in the GP is stronger than the JCW engine, they get to use the wider track, and the larger brakes. And, like it or not, the automatic, with the paddle shifters. BMW is using automatics in some of their other race cars, so there is corporate knowledge with them. Turner Motorsports told me they are used in some of their race cars because they a less expensive, easy to rebuild and/or repair and are almost as quick as a DTC. My guess would be that there are some performance tweaks to it, though.
And there are those conventional fender flairs some people would like to see on the GP.
MINI GP-ish goes racing...
The wing on this car makes more sense than the one on the GP, as this will provide more down force. I am not a fan of the rear valance as compared to the JCW Pro one.
None the less, this is exciting news to see some proper interest in racing the MINIs once again...
It officially entries GP3 TC class. The rear wing is common on all cars, the original black band only take 225, otherwise I think they raced factory engine & autokicker but only one heavy wet race.
Yes, heavy rain. They talked a bit about the “new” MINI in the TC class and how it had not turned a lap until it had gotten there. It did really well in qualifications, where it qualified 5th in a pretty large field of cars. Mark Pombo made it through about half the race at which point they showed him dead on the side of the track. They never did say what happened to the car, but it looked like he just coasted to a stop. The car did not run in Race 2. Both races are up on YouTube...(l
On their FB page they said the GP3-ish car had a hole/puncture in the radiator and then overheated "while battling for 3rd". No mention of Sunday's race yet, though.
Looking at the front brakes, they look to be using the JCW brakes vs the GP 3 brakes, along with 17” wheels. A little hard to tell, though. This is probably all due to spec and tire requirements for the class. I wonder what the HP is that they are getting? Also, I wonder what LAP is doing for brake caliper pistons and rebuild kits?
. They have some pics and video on their Facebook pages if anyone is interested.
