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Is an exhaust upgrade recommended ?

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Old 11-14-2017, 09:39 AM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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Is an exhaust upgrade recommended ?

Based on adding the Dinan Elite to my 2018 JCW - 6 speed - Convertible,
would an exhaust upgrade add anything substantial?
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:40 AM
trentiles trentiles is offline
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Not really. Some places tout 9hp. You won't feel that. Only really worth it for the sound.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:49 AM
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Thanks.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:43 AM
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Yes what he said. Most advertise roughly 10hp increase. This is at peak horsepower up high in the RPM band. Normal driving around you wont notice a difference, and maybe barely when wide open. Only change it if you don't like the sound of what you have.

The real power is hidden in the downpipe. If you can swing a catless DP (with emissions testing in your area), you will certainly notice the difference in power and sound.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:30 AM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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My 'Base' JCW is not weak with regard to hp and torque but if I go for
'The Elite' I will be able to judge its 'claimed' 30hp and 50tq gains vs
my 'Base' car. When I brought my 2012 VW Turbo Beetle up to the HPA
Stage 2, it included their upgraded down-pipe and a Borla Exhaust. I
cured the wheel-hopping it developed by upgrading the three mounts,
as well as Whiteline suspension upgrades and a larger intercooler. That
car did over 300hp at the wheels when I dyno'd it. The torque also
registered at over 350. With all that being said, I felt my new JCW is
closer in overall performance to my Lotus Elise which preceded the 'Beetle'.
All three are fun cars, that's for sure but for the combination of comfort and
performance I'll take the JCW.......with or without adding 'The Elite'.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:26 PM
trentiles trentiles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgemanron View Post
My 'Base' JCW is not weak with regard to hp and torque but if I go for
'The Elite' I will be able to judge its 'claimed' 30hp and 50tq gains vs
my 'Base' car. When I brought my 2012 VW Turbo Beetle up to the HPA
Stage 2, it included their upgraded down-pipe and a Borla Exhaust. I
cured the wheel-hopping it developed by upgrading the three mounts,
as well as Whiteline suspension upgrades and a larger intercooler. That
car did over 300hp at the wheels when I dyno'd it. The torque also
registered at over 350. With all that being said, I felt my new JCW is
closer in overall performance to my Lotus Elise which preceded the 'Beetle'.
All three are fun cars, that's for sure but for the combination of comfort and
performance I'll take the JCW.......with or without adding 'The Elite'.
I'm from the VW world as well. Done TONS of modding on those cars. I had a Mk6 Golf R that dyno'ed, 400 torque and 340hp to all four wheels, amongst 6-7 other VW's.

If you are looking for more power on the JCW I recommend don't bother with piggybacks. They are good for cheap and easy power but are not the proper way to "tune" a car. Not sure how familiar you are with them and the negatives associated with them. This might incur the wrath of most people here who think piggybacks are the bee's knee's (that's just because most don't know the world of proper flash tuning which is the norm for the majority of German cars, and others). They aren't bad per say, just that they have drawbacks that I feel are glossed over, or people just don't care about due to price or that they state "no issues". I'm opening pandora's box with these statements lol.

I had a JB4 on my S and while it was very good, I upgraded to a Bytetronik flash tune and it is tons better for not that much more money. So much smoother, more power, properly made power where the engine knows everything that is going on etc. It's not being tricked by sensors like a piggyback.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:47 PM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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Because of a bad back I had to sell my Elise. Even with the low powered,
4 cylinder Toyota engine she was quick and, by far, the best handling car
on the planet in 2005. Then, after I was forced to sell it, my friend picked
up a 2007 Exige that was supercharged, eventually getting the car up to
400 plus hp. That kind of power in a 2,000 lb car is something I had never
experienced in my life. Handling 'twisties' was where it really excelled and
I believe Lotus Engineering is in a class by itself. Found out that any time
many other manufacturers wanted to improve their car's handling they would
call in Lotus. Colin Chapman, the founder of Lotus, would have had a field
day tweaking the Mini. For beginner's I'm sure he would have said, '3,000
lbs is much too much....' and he would have put our Mini cars on a strict
diet. Power to weight, to utilization of incoming air, was always what he
felt a sports car had to have.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:58 PM
2017All4 2017All4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgemanron View Post
Based on adding the Dinan Elite to my 2018 JCW - 6 speed - Convertible,
would an exhaust upgrade add anything substantial?
More and different noise coming out the back is guaranteed with an exhaust "upgrade". HP/TQ gains you can feel and/or use? Not so much from an exhaust.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentiles View Post

If you are looking for more power on the JCW I recommend don't bother with piggybacks. They are good for cheap and easy power but are not the proper way to "tune" a car. Not sure how familiar you are with them and the negatives associated with them. This might incur the wrath of most people here who think piggybacks are the bee's knee's (that's just because most don't know the world of proper flash tuning which is the norm for the majority of German cars, and others). They aren't bad per say, just that they have drawbacks that I feel are glossed over, or people just don't care about due to price or that they state "no issues". I'm opening pandora's box with these statements lol.

I had a JB4 on my S and while it was very good, I upgraded to a Bytetronik flash tune and it is tons better for not that much more money. So much smoother, more power, properly made power where the engine knows everything that is going on etc. It's not being tricked by sensors like a piggyback.
Gotta agree with your main point. A piggyback is NOT a tune. It is a little bit of magic from an inexpensive (or expensive, depending on which one you get) mod.

I am getting all I need from my Dinan Sport. But I would never claim that it does what a full on tune, as part of a complete set of mods, can do for these cars.

In a couple of years, when I turn in or sell my leased MINI, it will be interesting to see what the market has on offer. Until then, the cheap thrills are workin' for me one year in. And, on a leased car, the plug-in for less than $300 with no welding or cutting or drilling made sense in my situation. Nice to have a range of options to accommodate a range of owner's needs.
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:58 PM
trentiles trentiles is offline
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Options are definitely a great thing. I wish we could fast forward the F-series tuning world a year in the future because it's been off to a very slow start compared to what I'm used to with VW. The amount of absolutely incredibly high quality parts for recent VW models is insane and I solely miss that in the Mini world. If I knew the market was there, and had the ability to accomplish something like this I would love to go down that road, but it just seems in the US the market is not there.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:26 PM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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Until others can match Dinan's Elite Guaranty, that lasts the duration
of the Mini Warranty, people will gravitate toward Dinan. If others
have as much confidence in their 'tuning', they should match Dinan.
If they don't, that tells me they are not willing to stand behind their
'tuning'. I understand they state having more power in their systems
but how do you prove your product is as 'long lasting without potential
problems' when your unwilling to match a competitor?
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:33 PM
2017All4 2017All4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgemanron View Post
Until others can match Dinan's Elite Guaranty, that lasts the duration
of the Mini Warranty, people will gravitate toward Dinan. If others
have as much confidence in their 'tuning', they should match Dinan.
If they don't, that tells me they are not willing to stand behind their
'tuning'. I understand they state having more power in their systems
but how do you prove your product is as 'long lasting without potential
problems' when your unwilling to match a competitor?
Well... remember, a BIG chunk of what one pays for a Dinan Elite covers potential warranty expense. This is partially a marketplace issue in that other tuners would need to do their actuarial analysis to figure out how to price warranty claim risk into their products. Just figuring that out costs money.

So we need to differentiate between product confidence and warranty risk cost. And if that $500 "tune" becomes a $1,000 item, will folks still pop for it just to get the "warranty?"

The thing to remember, is that part of the cost of a warrantied product is for that "free" warranty. Dishwasher or tuning box, the cost is baked into the selling price.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:41 PM
trentiles trentiles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgemanron View Post
Until others can match Dinan's Elite Guaranty, that lasts the duration
of the Mini Warranty, people will gravitate toward Dinan. If others
have as much confidence in their 'tuning', they should match Dinan.
If they don't, that tells me they are not willing to stand behind their
'tuning'. I understand they state having more power in their systems
but how do you prove your product is as 'long lasting without potential
problems' when your unwilling to match a competitor?
I don't agree with this line of thinking at all. If one looks at VW, for example, a market that Dinan is not part of there are numerous software companies that do not offer any extended warranty but have THOUSANDS upon thousands of cars running their software over absolutely insane amounts of miles with no issues. More cars than Dinan can ever dream about having their products on. So because they don't match VW warranty that means they have no confidence in their software and are worse than Dinan? No way in hell.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:43 PM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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Dinan's Elite is only $899, plus about $180 to install it, and for that
you have peace of mind with regard to any possibly 'super expensive'
outlays you might otherwise have to deal with. With it in a newly
purchased vehicle you're covered for 4 years, which is nothing to sneeze
at. If major damage happens to your engine, and you have a 'no guaranty'
tune in your car, do you realize what the potential financial risk you'd be
open to ?
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:48 PM
2017All4 2017All4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgemanron View Post
Dinan's Elite is only $899, plus about $180 to install it, and for that
you have peace of mind with regard to any possibly 'super expensive'
outlays you might otherwise have to deal with. With it in a newly
purchased vehicle you're covered for 4 years, which is nothing to sneeze
at. If major damage happens to your engine, and you have a 'no guaranty'
tune in your car, do you realize what the potential financial risk you'd be
open to ?
Nobody is arguing your point. For $899 you get a very good box AND the Dinan relationship with BMW/MINI that is time-tested. If something bad happens, there is a very good possibility that either MINI or Dinan, together or separately, will sort it and get things fixed.

What price peace of mind? It's a choice one makes depending on circumstances, risk tolerance, cost, and other variables.

But it might be a mistake in logic to leap to the conclusion that other products that do not carry the Dinan Elite's warranty are not good or safe. Though I always say, with any of this stuff, warranty or no warranty, it's buyer beware if it didn't come on the car from the factory.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:02 PM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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You can talk about other tunes holding up well without offering
a 4 year warranty but track guys go through engines constantly.
If you are not willing to match Dinan's Warranty, you are fearful
of having to potentially pay huge payouts and proves that you
have no real confidence in your product holding up over time.
$899 plus $180 labor is a small price to pay for up to 4 years
of protection.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:11 PM
2017All4 2017All4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgemanron View Post
You can talk about other tunes holding up well without offering
a 4 year warranty but track guys go through engines constantly.
If you are not willing to match Dinan's Warranty, you are fearful
of having to potentially pay huge payouts and proves that you
have no real confidence in your product holding up over time.
$899 plus $180 labor is a small price to pay for up to 4 years
of protection.
Interesting way of viewing this, ridgemanron. Neither Dinan nor MINI will likely honor a warranty repair for a blown engine that has been thrashed on the track.

What you DO get with the Dinan Elite is warranty IF, under normal use, the Dinan fails OR something on the MINI fails that can BE SHOWN TO HAVE BEEN CAUSED by the Dinan.

Not so much that other products (including the Dinan Sport) will or won't hold up over time. Rather a case of the makers of those products, including the Dinan Sport, not being willing to add warranty cost risk into the pricing of their product.

So let's not confuse quality/reliability with business risk management strategies.

Buying the Dinan Elite is a good risk mitigation strategy, which involves an added cost. But that Elite warranty does not, de facto, reflect adversely on the quality of other products.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:22 PM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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If you're not 'tracking' your car and want complete peace of mind for
a lengthy time, Dinan's Elite stands alone. If you'd rather 'roll the dice'
and go for a 'power tune', not only are you going to probably be buying a
larger intercooler, new down-pipe, and performance exhaust, but
probably upgraded mounts and suspension related parts as well. For
street driving I see the Dinan Elite running you about $1,100 (installed)
and, for most non tracking enthusiasts, a good way to go.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgemanron View Post
not only are you going to probably be buying a
larger intercooler, new down-pipe, and performance exhaust, but
probably upgraded mounts and suspension related parts as well.
I already have all that stuff and more, but I still won't be going with a tune (Manic) until my warranty is out. Until then I'm content with my NM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:34 PM
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I don't think the fact other tuners don't offer a warranty is because they're not confident in their product. Its just the fact that's unheard of! I don't know of any other aftermarket tuning company, box or flash type tune to offer any sort of warranty like this. Dinan is just flat out stepping up to the plate and offering something nobody else has.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:20 AM
trentiles trentiles is offline
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Quote:
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I don't think the fact other tuners don't offer a warranty is because they're not confident in their product. Its just the fact that's unheard of! I don't know of any other aftermarket tuning company, box or flash type tune to offer any sort of warranty like this. Dinan is just flat out stepping up to the plate and offering something nobody else has.
Exactly, saying other companies don't have confidence in their products because they don't do the VERY unusual practice of what Dinan does is absolutely wrong. Good for Dinan for doing what they do, but it doesn't mean jack about any other companies products.

Comparing someone blowing their engine tracking it, vs spirited/normal street driving? Apples to oranges

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Old 11-15-2017, 04:26 AM
ridgemanron ridgemanron is offline
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My friend runs a speed shop in Mamaroneck, N.Y. that mostly deals
with guys who 'track' their 4 cylinder Lotus cars at Lime Rock and
Watkins Glen. He has had to do major work on many engines for guys
who like 'pushing the envelope' with their cars.....and not just Lotus
cars but others as well. The simple fact of the matter is that internal
stress to a 'souped up' car's engine is not about will it occur.......but
how much it will cause? That's why guys who 'track' their cars will 'take
a bath' when they try to sell them, even if they seem to be running
alright at the time of the sale. It's a big, potentially expensive 'unknown'.

Last edited by squawSkiBum; 11-16-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
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I already have all that stuff and more, but I still won't be going with a tune (Manic) until my warranty is out. Until then I'm content with my NM.
When I decided to take my VW Turbo Beetle to Stage 2, both APR Tuning
and HPA said the K03 Turbo in my 'Beetle' had to be upgraded to the K04,
which comes in the 'top of the line' Golf R. That was another cost I needed
to incur. Also, the APR Stage 1 Tune kept registering a CEL at the down-pipe,
and only by 'tricking' the computer could they get me to pass emissions in
N.Y.. I was impressed that HPA (in Canada) guaranteed me that if they
installed the 'upgraded' K04 Turbo, there would be no CEL. Didn't have to
do anything to the down-pipe and, as HPA promised, I never had a problem
with emissions. Couldn't get that same guaranty from APR and that's why
I went with HPA. Had to be something about HPA's Tune which probably
involved not 'over pushing the envelope' with their Tune. It's possible APR's
Stage 2 may have offered a bit more power but it isn't worth it if you can't
pass emissions without using 'trick connectors' on your down-pipe.
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:09 PM
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Back on exhausts:
Got a JCW tune few months ago (had a quicksilver on before) and just did a 2,500 mile motor on. Opened the JCW exhaust (as the warning says only track) when on the interstate. I was running around 79 mph at a hair over 3,000 rpm and noticed that I was getting around 36 mpg. Not in "S" mode. 99% gas stations (MO, OK, KN, IL) had only 91 rated gas, surprising at the altitude, and the mpg varied a little with hills, etc. With the weight in the car (spare tire, luggage, extra stuff) thought that the mpg wasn't bad. My third MINI and the first mod is the exhaust and the JCW tune and exhaust has been the best for me so far.
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Old 11-16-2017, 05:35 PM
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I wish I worked for a tuning company. Good try though, I'm just a guy that works in Healthcare IT. Someone who has extensive experience in the world of using many company software flashes and many companies piggybacks. All bought at full cost. But, it seems like because you have a buddy who works at a "speed shop", you know all the "facts." I'm done with this thread as it got far off topic anyways.
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