Greetings,

What is the best way to handle a possible need for fuel injection cleaning? My 2003 Mini S with 15,000 miles is not turning over the first time I start it in the morning. It does start to kick in, but after the first few rumbles of the engine kicking it, it dies. The second time I turn the key in the ignition, it does start up.

When I explained this to Jenny (the new Mini service rep) she suggested that it might be the fact that the fuel injectors need cleaning. She recommended that I have them do a fuel injection cleaning for $110.00. Or I could pay $100 for the fuel injection diagnosis and then another $110 for the cleaning... (or more work if needed) Consequently, the most cost-efficient way to handle this is that I should just have it done anyway. (Not covered by warranty)

Am taking my car in for a series of other problems Thursday AM and am
still in dealer mistrust mode after my run-flat tires uneven wear were never detected by the dealer in spite of my constant requests to inspect them. Don't know what I should do!

So .............
What's the scoop on fuel injection cleaning from any of the more savvy Mini folks? A BMW biker friend said that I shoud just buy "SEAFOAM" at Napa and add it to the fuel tank. In my past life as T-Bird owner, I used to add something similar on a monthly basis and never had a problem.

Also, could the starting problems be caused by anything else?

At this point, I don't know which way to turn.
Btw, Midas does fuel injection cleaning and uses the same "BG" cleaner. Their price is the same as the Mini Dealer.

alohas!

 

Ah, the cold start problem. A known issue with many MINI's that I do not believe has ever been resolved by MINI. Try a couple of searches on NAM and you will find pages of info.

I have the same problem, yet now I call it a quirk or feature of the car. I find mine is not a 'cold start' problem, but a cool start problem. It fires perfectly in the winter, but in the summer in the cool mornings it needs two starts about 50% of the time.

I would not spend the money on injector cleaner or anything MINI is trying to sell you, it is their problem and they have never been able to resolve it that I know of. Also you will never replicate this problem at the dealer since you car is going to be warm every time it is there, unless you left it overnight.

 

Very interesting! Thanks for filling me in on your situation. Btw, my "cold/cool" start just began about a month ago. No problems before. Am wondering if this might indicate that it's not just another Mini glitch (like the bad idling situation) or whether it might mean fuel injector junk.

(And on top of it all, there's rust building up on my door hinges.... and I don't even live in a typically humid area... just up on the ridge above Kaimuki/Kahala.)

 

You can always go to a Chevron and buy Techron. The good stuff is @ $6+ per bottle and usually clears stuff up within a tank of gas.

 

Could be carbon build up in the engine intake/valve area.

I mention this because it starts and then dies. This can be caused by the carbon absorbing the first few seconds of fuel on startup, making it unavailable for ignition. Then once it has been saturated, the engine will start. It probably happens in more often in the cold because the fuel is less volitile at cold temps.

This isn't specific MINI information, just general engine info I've gathered checking into the problem on another car.

If our engines run rich, and produce extra carbon, that might be why we are prone to this problem.

I'd try a heavy duty engine cleaner, specificly for carbon, and valves. Won't cost you that much. Worse case you still have to go in for the dealer service.

 

Thanks to all of you!
My Mini is at the dealers now, awaiting service on several small quirks. I declined the fuel injection cleaning and will follow up with a heavy duty cleaner for carbon and valves.

Thanks fishey72 for suggesting a search on NAM. I did and found lots of recommendations for cleaners. Redline S1-1 Fuel injector cleaner was one of the brands that came up repeatedly. Beamer biker friend still insists that SeaFoam is the only way to go. Has anyone has any experience with SeaFoam or the Redline product?

Another thing... one of the NAM posts said "put the key in the ignition, let it sit in the ON position before starting for a few seconds, let the fuel pump do its thing. It always strted up quickly after that. So maybe it is fuel pressure."

I did.... and it started a little bit better than before. But it still didn't kick in.

More later....
Lazule

 

redline automotive on Waikamilo sells the redline products if you decide to go with this.
I've used product called BK44 in the past on my BMW for help with carbon/injector deposits.

 

BK is good stuff, but I never knew where to get it. Btw, there is now a Redline on Beretania by the Moiliili Star.

 

If you are using a "high" quality fuel, then I would guess that it isn't an injector problem at all. All of the better brands of fuel have detergent additives that will keep the fuel system clean.

If not, then use the product you feel most comfortable with.

 

I've used BG 44K Power enhancer once or twice yearly with good results.
http://www.bgprod.com/products/fuelair.html

"BG 44K® Power Enhancer safely, rapidly and thoroughly removes engine deposits in combustion chambers, intake manifolds, ports and on valves. It restores flow in fuel injectors and cleans the entire fuel system. BG 44K® Power Enhancer improves fuel economy and reduces exhaust emissions. It actually restores that “like new” driveability to an engine’s performance and keeps it running better, longer and more efficiently. Add one can or bottle to fuel tank at fill up. NOTE: After clean-up with BG 44K® Power Enhancer, regular use of BG Supercharge®II‚ Part No. 202‚ in gasoline engines or BG Diesel Fuel Conditioner with DPL‚ Part No. 2276‚ in diesel engines will prevent deposits from forming in the fuel system and upper engine for maximum driveability and fuel economy."

 

It's been over a month since I declined the fuel injection cleaning at the dealer. I used SeaFoam(on the insistence of several people) in a new tank of gas. My Mini S really sputtered on start up during the two weeks it took to go through this tank of gas with the cleaner. It really sounded like a lot of gunk was blowing out of the exhaust. The sound it made was a bit stronger and different than the previous spits and blasts before the additive.

Now I'm half way into a tank of clean gas and I still have the problem starting. Details: I turn the key in the ignition (am in neutral, clutch in). The engine makes a weak sound for about 3 seconds. Doesn't turn over. Dies. I turn the key off. I turn the key on again. It starts, barely hangs in there with spits and chugs...hesitates/weakens.... sounds like the fuel line is clogged. I give it gas (and sometimes alot of gas) and it finally levels out. I let it idle for a minute or so before I drive away. It drives fine. No problems.(Other than the stupid rough idle from the Emissions upgrade.) When I only go a couple of miles, park it and start it again (within 15-30 minutes) I don't have any problems. But the next day (or after 12-24 hours), it's a repeat.

I just searched all the forums for "engine stumble" and "cold start." Found so much stuff about possible causes...such as the ECU connections, engine wiring harness and dead battery cells. Even found a complicatd procedure to reset the ECU. I may be courageous with my computer but am not going to touch the ECU. A friend said it was the choke.

.... and so my question is what any pros think is the problem. Does it sound like carbon build up? Would low milage of 15k on an almost 3 year old 2003 S point to this? Should I try adding a different cleaner (RedLine or BG 44K) on the next tank of gas? Or should I take it back to Mini and request that they check the battery, ECU, etc. Or should I just pay for a fuel-injector cleaning? Am so peeved with Mini of Hawaii that I'll take it to Midas (who uses the same cleaner).

Btw, I was so disappointed during my last service visit at Mini. Jenny recommended the fuel injector cleaning in lieu of having to pay for a diagnosis. After declining it, I asked what she based this on and she said one other owner with low milage had the same problem and this solved it. One other Mini??? Am very confused about where they draw the line on responsibity to fixing (and or diagnosing problems with) cars under warranty and at what point the owner has to pay for diagnosis. What else is excluded from warranty work other than tires and carbon build up?

 

IIRC, '02, '03 and early '04 models had a cold start problem that was due to software glitches. The supposed cure was to update the software. It worked for some and not for others. Since it is a software upgrade, there is a also very good possibility that it will never be cured completely.

A good resource is MINI2.com.

 

I am not sure what my last software version upgrade v38.x was at the dealer, which was for the emissions recall. Still it did not fix the cold start. My nearest dealer is 300 miles away, so I have just come to the fact it is a 'quirk/feature" of the car that will never go away.

My non-tech opinion (swag) is that it has something to do with air temperature and density when starting. Mine always starts when it is really cold out (less than 40), and often has the 'cold start' above 40 degress.

Your best option might be to park it infront of the doors of the dealer leaving a note telling them you do not want it back untill it is fixed. Then call them every day, fax them every day, call MINI USA, email them, fax them, and basically bother everyone untill something is done.

Something about the squeeky wheel...

 

Could be the type of gas you're buying, Costco and Aloha used to import gasoline from Asian and a lot of people complaining that their car having problems similar to the thread, infact one of my brother-in-law experiencing same symptons and I told him to switch to another gas station and the promlem went-away. Gasoline are not made the same type of feed-stock so gas seems the gummed-up although the same octane rating/knock and uses standard engine for testing. (belive me i know I work for refinery)....
Hope this helps

 

Thanks for all the tips. Fortunately, I only bought Costco gas once and that was 6 months ago. In the meantime, I may have found the source of the problem and will post to the list when I know for sure!

Also, thanks, Beastmaster, for the info about the software glitches.

... and Fishey, I hope it doesn't come to that but I will be taking an aggressive stand.


Btw, was I wrong to hit the gas pedal to get the car to start after it failed the first time. "Someone" said that you never do this with the new fuel systems and that it could have been part of the problem.....???

 

--My late 2005 MCSa occasionally has some tough times in the morning but she sputters more than anything else. When temps are in the 60's or low 70's my car will start but it will sputter, vibration will be pronounced and the rpms will run a little low. Then something kicks in and starts revving the engine higher all by itself until the sputtering stops and then the car will idle normally.

I have a carburetored motorcycle and this sounds exactly what I do to start it on cold mornings. Except it's what I do manually. I'd pull the choke lever all the way down. Start the bike, and if it didn't start up with nice even revs (major sputter) I'd rev it up until the revs stay up to about midrange, then the choke would hold the revs up there. I'd let it rev at those mid rpms for a minute or two and then return the choke lever to its normal position. The bike would then idle normally. If I didn't do this in the morning my bike would give me a really rough ride to work or school. It ticks off the neighbors but oh well, my safety is worth more than my neighbor's happiness.

So my car seems to have a fix to what you're experiencing but the software seems to be doing it. Did you say that your software is still in the 30's? I thought we were in the 40's already? Just wondering if you might need a software update. Hope this helps.

 

Thanks for the analogy with your bike. Actually this is quite coincidental because my Beamer (biker) friend thinks my Mini problem is in the choke. And he busted me for giving it gas when it sputtered and struggled to start. So, I was wondering if you're supposed to just turn the key in the ignition and let the Mini do its thing (and no gas) or to give it gas and if so, at what point. Am trying to understand the concept of the choke in terms of today's high technology cars. Btw, I had an old Ford many years ago that had a choke that stuck out like a cigarette lighter. I remember fondly how it worked!

As for my software, I reminded them when I brought it in and was told I'm on the latest version (the one that gives you that rough idle because of the emissions situation).

 

--Well for a machine as simple as my 2 cylinder Ninja, if it wouldn't start nicely on its own sometimes I'd have to give it a little gas. I didn't have to worry about an ECU compensating or running through its own warm up routine because a baby Ninja doesn't have one.

I just talked to one of my DSM friends and he mentioned that our ECU controlled fuel injected cars do not use a choke but rather simply adds more gas during startup. In motorcycles and older cars when you pulled a choke bar out you were not only giving the engine less air but more gas. So revving the throttle and giving it more gas probably would be overkill when a choke lever is involved. That's probably where your beemer biker friends are coming from.

He also mentioned that the problem you're experiencing sounds a lot like a coolant temperature sensor problem. The coolant temperature sensor is the only way your ECU can tell how hot or cold your engine is. If it doesn't think that the temperature warrants running a warm up routine then it won't give the engine what it needs. Your sensor might be stuck on telling your ECU that it is plenty warm and the ECU is trying to start the car as if it were a warm summer afternoon even early in the morning when it is only 60 degrees. Probably the only way to get the dealer to fix it is to leave your car with them overnight and have them start it up first thing in the morning. When they can't start it you will have proven your case that this is a warranty item.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong when you give it a little gas on startup. You're just trying to get to work in the morning. But you shouldn't have to. Your ECU should be able to tell that the engine is really cold and to run a warm up routine like my MINI does. It is something that should be fixed because having an ECU that doesn't know how hot or cold your engine really is could lead to disaster.

My DSM friend also said that it if it were dirty injectors you would run rough all the time. He really thinks it's a sensor somewhere in the system that is giving your ECU false readings but not throwing an error code.

Also the next time they tell you that your MINI has the latest software version, ask them to show you which version and compare notes with people's versions here on NAM. It's not that we don't trust the dealer, it's just that we don't trust vague answers. Get an actual version number from them. They should be able to supply you with the number IF they even looked at it.

Hope this helps.

 

The 'cool start problem' only occurs in the summer above approximately 45 degrees. As it is getting warmer (higher 30's), I can tell it is starting to hesitate on startup. In the winter (temp in the teens) it starts up like a banshee, it is definately getting more gas, a good solid vrooooom!

I ruled out gas, as I use one of three different brand gas stations by me with 93 or 94 octane, never made a difference. I only have 17k on the car and fuel injector clogging/build up should not be an issue.

A coolent sensor...interesting...of course my dealer is 300 miles away...and would require about 6 trips to them to actually make anything happen...that is if they would listen to you, and try to do the work, and do it under warranty. Nearest dealer being Motor City Mini (Detroit), which has notoriously terrible service. In fact I go the Knauz in Chicago, because Chicago is more fun anyway.

 

VICTORY!

Problem solved by resetting the ECU. Thanks again to all of you and especially ***minihune*** . I waited a week to make sure that the reset did the trick. It's been 7 days now and my Mini turns over immediately. Like magic. After two months of listening to the death throes as it struggled to start, simply disconnecting and reconnecting the battery was all that it took to reset the ECU and the get it to start smoothly again.

Yes... if it were dirty injectors it would have run rough all the time ... which wasn't the case in my situation. Am still peeved that the Mini service department tried to get me to pay for a diagnosis and/or a fuel injector cleaning.

I did learn so much ... and thank all of you for everything. Hope this helps others who may have this same problem.

2003 MCS

 

--Glad to hear your problem got fixed Lazule! Ya Minihune has much wisdom. He's also a mean auto-x er too. If we MINI owners stick together we'll protect eachother from getting ripped off by the likes of "jenny".

 

Use Red Line SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner
every 3-5 thousand miles.

Also, quality gasoline.

There is a difference.

William

 

Premium gas with additives isn't a bad investment if you want to keep your MINI a long time. I like when my MINI is happy.


I left a can of BG44K Power Enhancer with Lazule to use- hope that helps as well. See
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?p=391088

I'm glad her MINI is doing better this week.

Poor starting with lots of rain and flooding isn't the best of combinations when you live near a nice stream.
There were alot of people all over the island that had their day interrupted by flooding yesterday (and in the past weeks).

 

Lazule - Glad to hear your starting woes are cured! Props to minihune for helping you get it squared away.

Streams are bad when they turn into raging rivers! I was driving in town on Kalakaua, Philip Street and Daiei and wondered why there was mud, rocks and branches all over the road. I found out why after watching the 5pm news! I drained th lake in my front yard last night, now I'm workingon the lake in the back yard. It used to be 10" deep but the sun has helped it diminish.

 

One last thing ... with thanks to minihune:

"If you ever need to reset your ECU by disconnecting the battery be very careful. The battery carries a big electrical charge. Don't let anything touch both positive and negative terminals at the same time. Disconnect one at a time only. I disconnected only the terminal on the left as it touched the chassis, not at the battery itself. Don't over tighten the nut it can be stripped.

There is also a method to reset the ECU from the dash board using the odometer switch. NAM has instructions on how to do that. Some HMMC members have done it before."