If we jacked our gas prices up to what they pay in the UK I think SUVs would be on their way out pretty quickly.

 

I meant that in terms of this debate. All the whining about "any" car is pretty meaningless. We don't make the laws (unless your a congressman). Economics always wins in the end. People will buy pintos with bad fuel tanks if that is what they like and more government regulation ... well that's political. Some citizens don't like more regulations.

In the end, its always about the dollar.

Oh, man, I forgot those irritating MINI drivers, you know the kind who get behind you on twisting roads while you drive the speed limit, conserving fuel, but you know they got to tailgate right on your bumper and pass you as soon as they can ... after all, why own a MINI if you can't drive in a sporting manner on the twisties? Hmm, did MINI marketing sell that?

It may apply to the low end vehicles but I have asked that question countless times to owners I know of Expeditions. No way, no how. They ain't giving up their vehicles for anybody. Their gas tipping point is far beyond the average citizen. And they will continue to buy the BMWs, Lexus, Porsche and MB SUVs. They simply do not care about the price. But it may effect the lower end of the market.

 

This statement I agree with. It may be slow change. Then again, the very concept of government messing in the business of citizens sometimes irritates the citizens who vote them into office. How long did it take for seat belt laws to be a law in every state? It didn't happen overnight. Wait ... Ego/status for 95% of SUV consumers? Where are you getting that number or is that your opinion?

 

I agree....even if economics (SUVs excluded) takes us to the brink of oblivion. Which would, of course, only alter the economics...so the principle still holds, I think.

 

Some very good things were typed on both sides of the argument, but I must put my 2 cents in:

Quote:

Originally Posted by paceysgl5

And my drive to work is 40 miles one way.

Why do people live so far from their jobs? That is part of the problem with the way communities are designed today. It may be unavoidable in very few cases, but most don't have to live in the East Bumble-effing suburbs and work on the complete other side of town. Plan your life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkdr81

Everybody's situation is different, but I think that there is an overall lack of social responsibility among many Americans and the SUV craze is one symptom. It seems like there are a lot of people pimping freedom but where is responsibility?

Word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paceysgl5

Yes, America in general is socially irresponsible. Many people own SUVs that don't need them. But also many people do other things that are a lot worse.

There is always some other worse condition to point to but that is NOT an excuse to not solve the problem at hand. Somewhere in your studies you may have covered the subject of "fallacies".

Quote:

Originally Posted by paceysgl5

I do not, however, appreciate it when people (again) make generalizations for no apparent reason.

People are forming these opinions from their own experiences. That's the apparent reason needed to share them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by treed

When in fact we need it to tow our jet ski, boat, & four-wheelers.

Just the very basic amenities for survival. Nothing lavish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chows4us

the only person you have to satisfy is yourself, nobody else. If your happy, that's all that matters

Depends on your level of selfishness. This statement may be the downfall of our civilization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chows4us

It's called "freedom of choice" and last time I checked, this was still America

Really? I don't recognize it. . . Are we really "free"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge

The marketplace doesn't know or doesn't care, by and large, about these issues, because the attitude is "me first". In other words, "I'll buy whatever I want, regardless of what anyone else thinks, no matter what the effect might be on them. Screw them."

Disappointing, but pretty true.

 

double post...weird.

 

Maybe we need to ask the Romans about that?

I meant that in the sense of when people bash your car. They may say MINIs are clown cars? Why care what others think? Your car, your money, do what you want. When the basher gives you the money to buy the car, then they can have a say.

That depends upon if you own the car of the bank

Far too much blood has been shed to keep this country free so yeah, I'd say we are free. Free to pick and choose whatever consumer product, from car to toaster, you want to buy. Free enterprise

 

My opinion. It's based upon my 95%/5% theory... that being that only roughly 5% of those who buy SUVs actually intend to use the vehicle for the way it is designed & marketed.

Unfortunately, you edited the other text out of your post before I managed to quote it... however I am going to answer it anyway.

You're right that there is no difference between a car person (MINI or otherwise) spending money on bling and an SUV person spending money on bling. Either way it's money that is ego-related, sure...

However, the car person does not cause the increased safety risk to other drivers around them that the SUV person does, bling or not.

So my point is that choosing to buy an SUV for the "image" is indeed one that has greater societal impact than choosing a car for the image.

 

I didn't think it relevant because the issue was SUVs being bought as status/ego symbols and other cars were not the issue.

But you see, when I attempted a bit of satire in a previous post about how, IMO, its silly to stereotype car owners by relating how MINI drivers could also be stereotyped, the same holds true here.

You wrote:

But the car person does not cause the increased safety risk to other drivers around them that the SUV person does.

I presume this is based on the opinion the SUVs are inherently not as safe (e.g., can't brake as well). I'm not going to argue that because its true, they can't, for example, brake or handle as well (some can accelerate far faster, OEM, than any MINI).

But this is a two way street. I can claim that added $10K of perfomance parts for MINI drivers does make it more unsafe for the motoring public. Why? Because I'd be willing to bet 95% of the MINI owners can not handle their car at 10/10s today, never mind when adding more HP.

You've read many, many perfomance threads here. What typically is asked by many?

---

Q. I have $xxxx dollars to spend. How should I spend it?

A. Invest in yourself. Go to a driver's school. Learn to drive your car.

Response: No way, I need 200 WHP. I need it.

Q. Same question. I want to spend $XXX on my car. How do I get more HP.

A. Forget about more HP. You need a balanced car. Invest in the other important components (e.g., suspension, brakes, tires).

Response. Oh no, I gotta smoke those xxx cars at stop lights.

---

The above is not hyperbole. I see it month after month. So the typical H2 owners spends money on wheel bling and the typical MINI spends money on performance mods. Thats make that MINI driver safe? Hardly, I call him/her more dangerous. Modify the car for more HP without being able to a.) drive what he already has and b., not modify the other components is not safe.

So the counter argument is that the car person is not safe. By increasing performance, they only make it worse, and this is especially true for a MINI target audience of mostly youth.

Any time you increase the speed potential, especially in the demographic groups with the highest rates of accidents (yes, young males), its bound to make the public less safe (and that is regardless of car brand). Speed does kill.

 

So my point is that choosing to buy an SUV for the "image" is indeed one that has greater societal impact than choosing a car for the image.

And taking this to the extreme, one could say that, first youth start on MINIs, then move up to more hard core, say Mustangs and then move on to Vipers and Vettes, faster and faster in a downward spiral of more and more speed.

Meanwhile those less safe SUV drivers mope along at the speed limit because they can't go any faster.

I'm guessing that speeding has a far bigger impact on society than any SUV for far far longer that SUVs have existed. But hey, lets hit those twisties ...

Yeah, its sounds funny, going hardcore to the big stuff But speed does kill (or so we are led to believe).

 

I so disagree with this statement. In our area we have so many little cars, ricers lets say, that are very dangerously driven. No, they don't have the weight or mass of the SUV, but the speeds they can reach while weaving in and out of traffic can easily cause an SUV driver to take half a highway out. So is that the fault of the SUV driver? No.

Then we have the crotch rockets, motorcycles that are just as bad. It's a regular sight on our Highway 264 and 64 to have them wizz by you going at least 80 and doing a wheelee. Oh and lets not forget doing the wheelee while standing on the seat doing over 80mph. So when they make that mistake and take out half of everyone around them, there will surely be an SUV to hold back a few folks from taking out even more than there share of cars.

It comes down to no matter what any of us drive, there are going to be some bad apples in everyone's bunch. It's life, Cowboy Up as they say. It's not worth all the bashing and head banging. It's not going to change under any means, laws, complaining, or arguing.

If I had the time to get into all the crap I've heard negative about how some Mini drivers think they own the road. Like we speed up and down the highways weaving in and out of traffic like we own the road, etc., etc., etc.
Let's all pipe down and get back to enjoying the forum.

 

Art, you bring up some good points, but the performance mod market is a small one, relative to the number of vehicles manufactured... so I would maintain that the societal impact of those modders is relatively small... whereas practically every SUV on the market has the same safety concerns relative to cars.

Apples and oranges there.

Even when you start to refer to *factory* performance cars (Mustang, Viper, Vette, etc)... look at the numbers of those cars manufactured and sold relative to oversized SUVs? Again, pale in comparison.

Also, it takes a particular combination of elements for either of these instances (performance modded or factory performance) to be notably dangerous - that being the decision of a driver to drive in a dangerous manner. It's a very low percentage. However, I'd venture that a very small percentage of SUV owners have ever had any instruction, training or just basic research & understanding of the risks & impacts of driving such an oversized vehicle. That means a very high percentage of increased danger from inexperienced or unedudcated drivers for that type of vehicle. Not to mention that there are also some SUV owners who drive in the same dangerous manner as the examples you gave. It's not as though every SUV driver drives the speed limit, or close to it.

The argument you made, while it has some merit, loses value when you compare relative situations.

SUVs were unleashed on a very willing public without any real foresight (or perhaps total indifference) as to the societal impact on others. And the impact has been (and continues to be) large, as SUVs became so popular.

Unleashed? Yep - unleashed... look at this:


It's easy to find examples of bad behavior from "other vehicles", but that does little to disprove my argument, because the numbers are staggeringly different.

 

Yep, sure are ...when you work hard you play hard.

 

SUV's = Bad

Over the course of the last 4 months my mom has had her new 2007 GMC Yukon XL, which was a trade from a 1994 GMC Suburban, she has already backed into 2 different things despite having a back up alarm. The first one was one of those cement pillars you sometimes have in parking lots to block entry ways. The second one was my dad's Jeep Liberty.

Over the last month i have almost been hit by SUV's 3 times (you wonder why I am upgrading my horn? There is your answer). Twice in a parking lot by people backing out of their spots and once at a stoplight by a guy who wasnt paying attention and tailgating.

Maybe it is just me, but driving such a small car you tend to take much more notice of how badly some other people can drive (this coming from a teenager). Whether or not it is an SUV doesnt make a huge difference, rather it has more to do with the driver. That said i can say that when one of those SUV's makes a mistake and has to do something quickly as a result (brake, turn or speed up) they are going to be in much worse shape than a regular car.

 

That's exactly my point, which I made earlier in post 119.

SUVs exaggerate existing problems due to their excessive size & weight. So driver mistakes are therefore amplified too.

 

Yes, the numbers of SUVs sold versus performance cars is probably far more, after all, they kept Detroit in business.

But the principle remains the same. 90% of this, and most all MINI forums, are performance oriented. Granted that might not be the majority of MINI owners. Same is true for other sporty cars. Its always the same thing. Gimme more HP. This is true whether its a 100 HP MC or a 600 HP Viper. Somebody always needs more power. Adding more power and going faster is the prevailing theme in most any performance car forum (not true in the RAV4 forum, I have seen exactly one thread on performance. They mostly talk about bling and prices).

Regardless, "speeding" has surely killed more Americans than SUVs ever have and will continue to do so far, far after SUVs are dead and buried. Speeding is timeless or maybe human nature for youth to test itself (I'm not claiming any innocence here, we were all young once).

Cars like MINIs, and of course, others makers as well, sell on the allure of speed. Hit the twisties. The car is made to run on rails ... whatever. And I'm not saying just MINIs. OTH, many SUVs, as well known, can barely get out of their own way.

I have to conclude from this that sporty cars, in general, have been, are, and will continue to be far more dangerous to the motoring public simply because car makers Market that image (yeah GoKart, you know they do), always have and always will. Youth will always test itself. And you know as well as I do that speeding (and drunks) cause deaths. Popular car show like Top Gear don't sell well because their talking about safety. And car magazines don't sell well because they are discussing Camrys.

My point being ... maybe SUVs are not as safe, but are "sporty cars" any more? I will say it depends upon the driver and while sure, some SUV drivers may not be able to handle their vehicles, I'd bet there are equal number of drivers of sporty cars who cannot for what their car is capable of. There are far, far too many Mario Andretti wannabes out there that can be easily be seen, day in, day out. Even worse, when you move up to more powerful cars, and talk about inexperienced drivers, the dangers become far more deadly (no need to go into here recent examples of that we all know about).

SUVs unsafe. Maybe, Sporty cars, unsafe, well speed kills as well and those kinds of cars are marketed and bought to speed.

As one person remarked in this forum (I can't remember the exact words or who) but it was something to the effect of, What's the point of owning a MINI if you can't drive it fast?

Update: OK you just added the graphic. Good info. But I'd still bet the number of deaths or injuries caused by speeding is more than those caused by SUVs, and not just for the years SUVs have existed. Speeding is never ending, universally embraced, and market by some car makers with performance "enhancements" as a means to sell. Kind of like cigarette companies selling to youth?

The point here ... you got good data on sales there. Any maybe they are less safe as vehicles in general, OTH, I'm guessing sporty cars have killed and will continue to kill far more people long after SUVs are long gone simply because they are marketed, sold, and people buy them for the very reason of the "the need for speed".

 

Yes, speeding is dangerous. But this whole thread wasn't created to talk about the dangers of speeding, or why people do it, or what we can do to prevent it.

This thread was created to discuss SUVs, what are the pros and cons, why do some people despise them.

You're only deflecting the argument. The sheer size of the marketshare that SUVs hold creates a problem in today's environment. Not yesterdays, before they became popular. Not tomorrows, when they may no longer be prevalent (one can only hope). But today's.

Please save the deflection for another thread about speeding. The popularity and bad design (hey, good enough for current regulations though ) of SUVs have created additional problems today that are relevant and of real, understandable concern to those of us who recognize it.

You don't solve one problem by focusing on another, unrelated one.

 

Yes, its gone OT.

 

And you sure aren't helping to prevent that!

Don't try to defend something by attacking something else. It doesn't change the original point one iota.

 

Wow... interesting thread! My biggest problem with them is that they are terribly inefficient! If gas prices doubled, a lot of people would suffer, especially those that *don't* own $30-45k+ SUVs. And I know that people with their Navigators, Expeditions, etc probably would keep driving them for awhile. Eventually though, a social stigma would be born that would cause these drivers to rethink what they drive. In other words, the same sort of thing that spurred so many people to purchase an SUV, will cause those drivers to ditch the SUV for something that has less of a social stigma attached.

This has already happened once, just look at the 70's!

 

Regardless of what your "Survey" has told you, the average middle income family (An expedition is not a luxury car by ANY means ) is not going to be able to sustain $800-$1000 a month gas bills .

 

In reading these posts throughout the day, and anti-suv posts in general, how come in many cases I seem to detect "small man complex" coming from many Mini owners.

I see a lot of "holier then thou" attitiudes out there and many "experts" too.

How about everyone just putting down their mouses and going on a drive!

And besides, I think there are some pretty hot soccer moms out there!

 

First thing I have to say, Edge, is this forum was started because I wanted to know why so many attacked SUVs. Meaning, when there are SO many other incidences caused by other types of cars out there, why always go back to blaming the SUV? I am only bringing this up because chows4us brought up some very good points regarding high speeds and sports cars that I stated from the beginning (albeit he stated them more eloquently than I did). Those are all things I wanted discussed, because what I was asking in the first place is WHY SUVs are targeted when no other class of car was.

Secondly, no Expeditions are certainly not luxury cars Rustyboy, but we could afford to spend $600/mo on gas for that car plus $700/mo on gas for my husband’s car. Which leads me into my biggest gripe that I have and can’t just ignore:

Quote:

Why do people live so far from their jobs? That is part of the problem with the way communities are designed today. It may be unavoidable in very few cases, but most don't have to live in the East Bumble-effing suburbs and work on the complete other side of town. Plan your life.

Why can’t people just assume that there is a reason for something and let it be? I do take it personal (when maybe I shouldn’t) when someone bashes something that has to do with me or my family. My husband drives 55 miles per day in the opposite direction than I do. Hence we moved somewhere in between to minimize total driving time for the both of us. We do it for our jobs, as the market is not exactly embracing us both with 20 offers to choose from. We had 2 weeks to get an offer and accept, purchase a home, move all while planning a wedding. Too bad if it offends you for ME to spend 2 hours per day in a car, but get over it. If my job was right around the corner, I’d be thrilled. But it isn’t. And we both like our jobs, and I wouldn’t quit simply due to the drive.

chows4us - thank you for taking on the discussion last night. You, as well as everyone else no matter what side of the fence they've positioned themselves have really brought up a lot of good points.

 

hmmm...interesting thread. I would just like to tell Pacey that driving in Boston is not so scary...it is getting into Boston on rt 128 ( now is the rt 95 and rt 93 belt around Boston) that is scary....the drivers on rt 128 are crazy!

 

That's simple: to not be curious about things isn't human!

The thing is, you can't stop people from having opinions about the actions you take. May not be "right" but it's a fact.

This might be a bit off-topic, but how does 20 job offers mean the "market is not exactly embracing us"?

Hmm.... I'm not sure about the point of this thread, then. If people can't express his/her opinion without being told to get over it, is there another point? If that is going to be an acceptable practice, why shouldn't we say "If it offends you that people bash your SUV, you should just get over it."?