How do you back up with emperical data that owning SUVs is conspicuous consumption? Not going to happen.

Pacey, it doesn't matter. You drive want you want to because you want to. You don't have to justify your vehicle choice to anyone just like MINI owners don't need to justify to their other buddies why they may be driving a Clown Car (in the opinion of their buddies). To each their own. Your money, your car.

BTW, if your from MA, everyone drives crazy around Boston anyway! (I know, I'm originally from there)

 

Out of a seemingly endless and pointless debate about such a silly thing, can I say thank you, chows4us?? You made me laugh when everyone else just made me wonder why I even asked the question in the first place.

True, true. Except that I'm not originally from here. - Originally from Seattle where drivers are known to be the nicest around (at least from those that visited). I've lived in MA for about 9 months and haven't driven into Boston once...and now with my MINI...no way!!

 

Dont have anything against suv's. Just HUMMERS! (No he dident!)

CHeck out fuh2.com Talk about disdain

 

Looks like plenty of people covered the reasons people don't like SUVs having to do with the design itself (high- unstable, bad visibility and blocking, heavy- longer braking distances, too insulating and poor handling, high lights- blinding etc, etc) that many people piloting these large things don't seem to account or have any skills for, possibly because they feel so invulnerable.

I often have to dodge SUV drivers and see others doing the same and frankly I think the driver is completely unaware of the avoided accidents because of the poor visibility and awareness of the size of the vehicle and what is going on lower and to the back of the b pillar for large areas. The other reason some SUV drivers may experience fewer accidents beyond being unaware of causing them/almost causing them is the fact that many regular cars go to great lengths to avoid them, knowing the drivers do not keep the proper distance for stopping them and are much less able to avoid/react to accidents and are likely to roll over and lose control if they try.

And lastly, SUVs seem to compromise the owner's judgement when parking too - their keepers so often jam into compact parking spaces in complete disregard for the cars around them

 

Again, more judgements by small car owners. I have seen just as many new, expensive cars as I have seen SUVs park in the outskirts of parking lots. Just as I've seen just as many fast SUVs as I have little cars with too-big engines on the highways. Maybe it's just that SUVs are more visible, but at any rate anything is vulnerable and you have to understand how to drive the car your currently motoring in. Maybe some SUV drivers drive like they own the road. But just as many sports cars drive at ridiculous speeds just asking for someone to jump out in front of them and cause them to slam on their brakes or go into the breakdown lane just to avoid them.

Personally, I've seen more idiotic motorcyclists/sports cars drive like they own the road vs. SUVs that think they can handle those speeds. Of course, like everything, there are outliers in every statement, but in general (in my experience) most people drive to their car's capability.

 

I really think all of these generalizations of SUV drivers is out of line. It really bugs me when people buy cars as some sort of a political statement. I bought my Mini because I wanted a small, zippy car and I love the Mini legacy. Before I had my Mini, I drove a Ford Explorer sport. After a while, I realized that the SUV route was not for me, but that doesn't mean I should give people a hard time for driving what they want. I don't think anyone here is in a position to judge others because of the cars they like to drive. None of you know what these people actually use their cars for. As far as SUVs go, I think the current gasoline situation will sort all of that out in the coming years, and the people who buy "smart cars" or the new Fiat will look at us Mini drivers as the new gas guzzlers...

 

No worries. I believe every car/vehicle has a purpose. It's designed and built for some purpose. When not enough are sold to the public, they disappear. Lots of vehicles have come and gone over the years. Entire marques, like mini, have disappeared from the marketplace. And some SUVs will most likely disappear as well. Others will morph more into crossovers.

I'll also defend the philosophy to do bling to whatever you want to your car. I may personally hate certain things like spinners and some fake "burble" but the owners have the absolute right to waste (er spend) their money anyway they want. That is America. You don't have to like it but you have freedom of choice.

In the end, the market will decide what stays and what goes. Money talks, BS walks (as they say). And yes, I have a softroader, not a true 4 x 4.

But you know eVal, that is a two way street. Part of what you say may be very true. On the other hand, I see many times, and I hate to say it but its usually young people, darting in and out of traffic with no regard to anyone around them in their sporty cars and I wouldn't trust them for one second to be able to driver their car at 7/10s.

Just the other day, and i'm not picking on MINIs here, somebody in a MINI didn't like the traffic so he decided to weave his way in and out and around it and speed off at lets say, speeds we are not allowed discuss here. Quite an example for owners. Do you think he/she was capable of handling the car safely. I doubt it it. Why?

How many people do you read here on this forum who immediately start dumping thousands of dollars in aftermarket go fast parts? How many people in the $10K or $20K club. Now while obviously there are some good track day and autox drivers here ... excluding those few, when you suggest to others to invest in themselves, take DEs, go to school, whats the answer? Oh no, they gotta buy that ALTA CAI or whatever. When then can't drive their car at 9/10s as it is, what's the point of adding more HP but they do.

So its a two way street. Sure they may be SUV owners who might not be able to handle their SUVs safely. OTH, I'm guessing there is the same percentage of MINI owners who can't either.

Well said. Just because you see a person alone in a SUV, you don't know the husband isn't taking the SUV to go fishing or hunting on the weekends. Its all presumptious and meaningless.

Yes, the marketplace will sort it out. It always does.

 

I'm just stating what I have observed and has given me my opinion, it is not a political statement for me. The driving and parking issues I mentioned happen all of the time, and the inherent results of large SUVs being heavy, high, and such are simply facts.

As for sports cars and motorcycles, well that's another topic (and I never have a problem with them being too mammoth all around for a marked compact space ), I was just responding to the question of "why all the hating on the SUVs out there"

 

Remember, it's not the gun that kills people, it's the person that pulled the trigger.

Hence, it's not the SUV that has issues, it's the driver!


We've owned a Tahoe, Expy, and currently an 04 Escalade ESV ('Burb length). Yes, my wife drives it as her everyday driver. Yes, we only have one child, a daughter who is heavily involved in competitive soccer. Yes, there is grocery bags in the back on the way home from the grocery store. We both are very aware of the inability to see perfectly around the entire width and breadth of this big azzed vehicle. Sure, she drives it 22 miles a day to and from work, it can't pass a gas station that it doesn't yearn for, and it's big and burly. Ya know what? I don't care about the gas expenditure, I don't care about the emissions (middle of the road tree hugger here), and I don't care about other people's feelings when she's on the road in it. She doesn't drive like a maniac and in fact, suffers more from the wrath of others cutting in front of her, because she's giving extra room to slow that big pig down, instead of tailgating and zipping in between cars.

Bottom line is, she's happy, feels safe and enjoys her Escalade. She REFUSES to chat on the phone while driving (Dec 06 accident that totalled our Mercedes while on the phone...not directly related, but it's a mojo thing).

I love the utilitarianism and ability of the vehicle for soccer stuff, soccer girls, and all the room you could want. Plus, I sit in the back and watch movies with my daughter!!

Just so I don't get flamed, I got the MINI to commute to work which is 70 miles a day roundtrip, she drives the gas hog, and we have a diesel pickup to tow the horse trailer and the likes of that stuff.

It's all good. Hate the driver, not the vehicle!

 

You responded on a one-sided statement though. I asked why everyone has decided to pick on SUVs due to the fact that there are sports cars and motorcyclists that are just as guilty, if not more so, for the same thing.

Every type of car may have its own generalizations but at the same time there are usually similar types of people driving each. You may notice the SUVs more often than the small cars cutting you off, but the rate is probably the same. So why hate just the SUVs? Why not just state "the SOB in his ridiculous car who cut me off today" but it could be anything...not just a darn SUV.

DH has a motorcycle and a 740iL. I have a MINI and an Expedition. I surely do not look simply at a car and generalize the person on the type of car they drive. Who knows why they have it? And who the heck cares? I get just as PO'd when a honda cuts me off as I do when a pickup does...and I pass them both in the MINI without regard to the type of car it is

well said, and remember that the driver can behind any car, not just an SUV...

 

Looks like I was writing when you were writing and I think I kind of addressed this in that post - other issues with different car drivers/riders and cars were not in the equation for me in making my observations about SUVs/big trucks and forming my opinions about them. Yes there are other profiles of people that are often bad drivers and dangerous - people eating, on cell phones, elderly drivers, youth meets hormones and inexperience, MUNI bus drivers, you get the picture, and I deal with them cursing under my breath all of the time - but here I'm stating my experiences with SUVs, the issues with them due to their size and design and the fact driver's are frequently not up to driving well considering the size and the braking and visibility limitations.

I hear you, there are other bad drivers out there in (or on lets not forget cyclists) other vehicles and believe me, I know, I live in SF Thing is the very design of a large truck carries with it certain baseline considerations that have made me dislike them.

 

Yeah.

You asked for the reasons why people don't like SUVs. People responded with MANY valid reasons why they dislike and/or are afraid of SUVs and their drivers. Some of the reasons cited were generalizations of the SUV drivers. Your original post and several of your subsequent posts lead me to believe that you fit some of those generalizations to a "T".

You basically blew off all of the reasons presented (again, many of which relating to the SUVs themselves are very valid, and are backed up by hard data) by saying that the people who replied to you need to be more open-minded. What does being open-minded have to do with it?

"You just need to be more open-minded" is a weak argument for damn near anything, and a cop-out when the responses to a question you asked aren't what you had hoped for.

 

Okay, first rule of posting in a forun, "don't post in a hurry". Looks like I violated this. Mea culpa.

When I posted my original response, My intent was to state why I believe people hate SUV's, not the validity of those beliefs. When hate is directed to somthing or someone; objectivity, rationality, and facts are lost. These are replaced by anecdotal evidence used to justify the hate.

As Jamie Kennedy once said, "Don't be hating."

BTW, I own a 2002 Isuzu Trooper. It's a good, reliable SUV that we bought new to haul me, the wife, and our two dogs on road trips. Yet, I drove it to and from work by myself for nearly three years. Easily surpassing the mileage from our monthly trips between KC and OKC.

For now, this car sits in the garage six days of the week. It will most likely gain less than 3000 miles this year. We will keep this car for years because it fulfills a need. Once the need is gone, so too will be the SUV.

 

It is not the SUV, it is the bad drivers.
SUVs are popular and there are a lot on the road. Most drivers are bad drivers. Therefore there are a lot of SUVs being driven bad. This is the problem.

I really don't care what people drive if they would drive them well. (Ok I am a tree hugger and wish there were no SUVs but that is for another discussion.)

I see almost every day somebody sitting in the left lane just driving along. I don't think most know they should not be there. To them it is just another lane.

We need better driver education. Autoweek did a whole issue on this topic and is it scary.


So if you want to drive an SUV well you will get more approval from me than driving a MINI poorly. (Like anyone cares if I approve.)

 

It was not a cop out in my opinion due to the fact that I did read through all of the so-called facts and statements about SUVs/SUV drivers. Might I ask which of the generalizations I fit to a "T"? I could generalize all day about every person simply depending on the type of car they drive. BUT what I was stating about keeping an open mind is that not everyone DOES fit a certain mold. If you continue to generalize (god that word is becoming redundant) then you will never open your eyes to new things around you. New people. New experiences. If, on these MINI boards everyone keeps bashing those darn SUVs, no matter what they are doing or what they did to you, then it will become a downward spiral of hate towards 1 car breed. Get over it...it is just another car. People may have good reasons to purchase them, they may not. Who cares?

Some people might buy a MINI just for the sheer fun - no other reason than that, and it might be so incredibly impractical for their lifestyle that all of a sudden they have purchased an excess car for no apparent, real reason. So? If that is what they want to do, then so be it. Just as driving an SUV is what some may want to do.

All I was saying, from the beginning, is why just concentrate on the SUV as the bad guy here? More often than not it's an idiot with a death wish who cuts through traffic and who is driving some little sports car, not an SUV. Sure there are $%#hole SUV drivers out there, just like with every other car. I don't see the hard and fast statistics out there proving that SUV drivers are more rude per say than another breed of car. All I see are people attempting to put all their anger from driving and getting cut off or stuck behind something on the SUV and its driver.

Thank you for clarifying your sentiments. This statement about hate is too true. Sort of what I was trying to get across when stating my "weak, cop-out argument" supposedly without actually reading any of the replies: keeping an open mind. Where are the facts?

Evidence seems to come from the fact that sometimes, it's actually an SUV cutting you off and not another type of car! Or an SUV taking that wonderful spot in the parking lot that you always take! Oh, now that can't happen again, so I'll just go around saying I hate all SUVs in an attempt to make myself feel better.

 

So far, this is what you've told us about your decision to buy an SUV.

1) It is good for when you have to move... not very often. What do you use it for in day to day life? Do you haul large amounts of stuff every-day?

I realize that you've bought a MINI now and that greatly improves the situation, but before you did that you certainly had no reason to own an SUV as a daily driver. AND, to say that it is a problem of the driver, and not the vehicle itself, is also naive. SUVs drain our natural gas reserves, block other motorists sight on the road, are incapable of manuevering around an accident, and cause probably twice the damage when in an accident that a compact car traveling the same speed would have.

2) You've been in 4 accidents in 1 year, none of which was our fault, naturally. So you decided it would be a good time to buy an SUV so you would be protected, even if it meant endangering the lives of anyone else involved in said accidents.

3) You're a 20 something (which is fine, so am I) who hasn't mentioned anything about kids, dogs, etc., so I have to assume that you don't need to carry people/pets on a regular basis.



The real problem, as I see it, is that most people are poor drivers, as stated in a previous post. Once they get behind the wheel of an SUV, however, the problem grows exponentially, as these poor drivers treat the SUV as a small car, and don't realize how long it actually takes them to stop, or how difficult it is for them to swerve to avoid an accident.

For clarification, I am not insinuating that you are a poor driver. But, to say that SUVs are not a hazard to everyone else on the road is naive to the extreme.

 

You're missing the point entirely. People complain when SUVs are parked poorly. This is a problem with the driver, because they can't control their vehicle, but if they were in a smaller car thats significantly less wide, it would have been easier for them to actually park within the lines.

You're making up complaints that nobody has actually brought up to help try to prove your point and its not helping your argument.

 

Actually I have mentioned dogs, am married, and have a large family of in-laws. We also have a boat that I could not possibly hope to pull with the MINI. At least twice per month we use the Expedition to haul stuff (wood for projects around the house, furniture, people). How about towing a boat with 7 people in the car? Isn't that better use of fuel than towing a boat behind a smaller car and then having to take 3 separate cars to bring everyone to the boat ramp?

And yes, my dogs end up in the Expedition more than the MINI. #1 - they need the space. #2 - We can also have other people in the car vs. the MINI that the dogs are cramped and we have to take another car for anyone else to come.

Incapable of maneuvering around an accident?? Jesus, is it the apocalypse during your drive every day? I have very good maneuvering skills, thank you, and yet I haven't needed them daily with my car.

Do NOT insinuate that even 1 of my accidents was my fault. That is just plain rude when you do not know the facts. I had a streak of bad luck, and yes the initial reason to purchase the Expedition drew from the fact that if these &#$holes decided to hit me one more time then their cars would get beaten up more than mine would.

Care for me to go into all 4 accidents? I didn't think it necessary, but apparently you are not satisfied with someone else's word. #1 -Friend was driving my Plymouth Laser in Atlanta during a cross country trip. It started downpouring with little visibility without warning, and a semi-truck rammed the rear of the car. Cost to fix was too high (car wasn't worth more than 2k to begin with) so it was totalled #2 - A VW Cabrio. I was in the left-turn lane at a stop light awaiting my signal when someone rammed into my front. The car stalled and wouldn't start again, and the cost to fix was more than the worth of the car, it was totalled. #3 - While test driving a Hyundai Tiburon (hey I was a college kid after all) I was driving along in my right hand lane and a pick up truck veered into the driver's side of the car crushing in my seat and the entire rear of the vehicle. #4 - Decided not to purchase that car (ha-ha) and purchased a Jeep Grand Cherokee (on my way to thinking that a larger car could not be harmed as easily). Get home from a dinner out with friends, go to bed, and wake up to police & firefighters outside because a neighbor had kicked a hibachi grill underneath the car setting the car on fire. I was crying due to the fact that all of this happened within about 10 months and I was SO very tired of dealing with my insurance company and purchasing new cars.

There. Happy. My fault? Umm no, but I sure can fess up if ever one was my fault.

I do agree that most people are poor drivers, but just as SUVs are driven poorly so are the other, smaller, cars out there that can cause accidents just as easily.

Why don't people complain when other cars are parked poorly? What about motorcycles that take up an entire spot even when there's specific motorcycle parking? Or how about those BMW owners that take 2 spots just so someone won't park next to them? NOT EVERY SUV driver parks poorly, just as not every damn BMW owner takes up 2 spots. And, FYI parking the Expedition is just as easy as parking the MINI. Not sure if you've ever owned an SUV (at least a decent sized one) but they are actually quite easy to drive and maneuver. Parking between lines is not difficult for most people. Of course there are the outliers in that statement, but I have probably seen MORE sedan drivers park like crap than SUVs.

 

I did a search and re-read everything you've said so far, no mention of dogs. And thats great that you have a lot of in-laws, but I doubt you bought your SUV just to carry them.

Either way, I assumed that since you were defending your purchase of an SUV you would've brought up that you had dogs, and I'm sorry that I was wrong.

Thats not what I said. I said that when an accident does occur, an SUV cannot manuever as well as a compact car, regardless of the skills of the driver involved.

I didn't insinuate anything. Either way, at best we have one side of the story, and I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt. Its nothing personal, honestly.

Yes, they can, but as has been mentioned countless times in this thread, a SUV that causes an accident will do much more damage than a smaller car by default. There are poor drivers in every type of car, but they are exponentially more dangerous when behind the wheel of an SUV.

We do, constantly. I've never seen a motorcycle parked across the lines of a parking space. In fact, I've often seen them squeeze 2 or even 3 bikes into one spot. Around here, we don't have motorcycle specific parking.

We complain about those as well, and they risk getting their car keyed every time they do it.

Nobody has ever said that every SUV driver parks poorly, or that every SUV driver is a poor driver. There are exceptions to every stereotype.

Its not, by default. It seems as easy for you because you're a competent driver.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, LOL.


Either way, we're debating two different issues at once. You don't like it when people make sweeping generalizations about SUV drivers. I can agree with that, but those stereotypes are valid because they're based on fact. There are always exceptions.

I'm debating that poor drivers are much more dangerous when behind the wheel of an SUV, and those are the people that we complain about.

 

Well you're right...I thought I had stated it somewhere but apparently not. Weird. Guess it was in my head but not typed out...what was in my head was that I use the expedition for trips to the beach and parks and such with the dogs (keeps the sand out of the mini!). Plus off roading in Vermont (& in the snow - which was at about 5' on the ground last Feb).

Fine, but that doesn't mean that SUVs are the main cause of the accident to begin with. (NOT that you said that, just stating that SUVs are not the main problem here).

You did insinuate it, actually. You may have one side of the story but I have police reports and my insurance company to back me up stating that not one accident was in any way my fault. Take it for a grain of salt, but why not trust others to tell the truth? Give me the benefit of the doubt here. I'm not trying to lie and start a fight. But my original question still has not been answered, hence the reason that I have continued to post in this thread (and to respond to some not-so-nice comments...)

My point exactly. This stereotype is JUST a stereotype, and my point is that it is wrongfully here. You may complain about those other motorists, but what is the go-to vehicle to let your aggrivation out on? SUVs (I'm talking about all those people who post about that &#@ SUV when 3 sedans cut them off just prior to 1 SUV doing the same thing).

What FACT? That is what I am asking. Show me hard proof that SUV drivers, in general, cannot seem to PARK, DRIVE, or otherwise be decent drivers in society vs. other types of car drivers.

Okay. I get that point. However when a poor driver gets behind the wheel of any car they should be complained about, not just when they get into an SUV and take off with it.

 

Ok so "fact" was the wrong word to use. Observable, empirical evidence, hows that? Day-to-day driving shows us that its usually SUV drivers, because, by default, there are more of them on the road than other cars. Or, at the very least, they are a lot more noticeable.

It also seems like poor drivers flock to SUVs like bugs to a flame, probably because it gives them a sense of false security at the expense of everyone elses security around them.

 

I think it is more the "lot more noticeable" part and not actual reasoning here. After driving the MINI for a while, I certainly do NOT see more SUVs acting up compared to other cars. In fact, I don't think one has ever tried to cut in front of me. However, daily there are the "sooped up" little cars that think they're all that and attempt to pass me...only to see my rear end far off in the distance.

I guess it is your opinion that SUV drivers are worse that most others. However, maybe that opinion is based in myth and stereotypes and gets brought to the table due to that vs. actual real-life observation while driving?

 

I've lived in Myrtle Beach for the past 6 years. I dealt with tourists in SUVs day-in and day-out. Tourists in general are bad drivers, regardless of what they drive, but the ones in SUVs caused the most problems since they were so much bigger.

 

Well that is different. Tourists suck and they need/want the space of the SUV for all the beach equipment & the family. So they rent/bring along the SUV and then give a bad rap.

God if I wanted to base my observations on driving on such a small locale I'd say that all of the driving population was absolutely insane from watching NYC or Boston drivers. I'd want to hightail it on home and never get in a car again if every driver in the US was like that!

 

Now you know how I feel, LOL. But when you combine the crazy habits of drivers from all the big cities... you get the feeling that its actually the norm. Even in the small town I live in now if I go to the mall (or God forbid, Wal-Mart), I would bet that over 60% of the cars are parked poorly. It takes me forever to find a spot that I feel safe parking in. I figure if they're that poor at pulling into a parking space, imagine what they'll be like trying to back out while hopefully trying to see whats behind them!