I'm curious about slowing down and what the advantages and disadvantages are to the two different methods.

I prefer to downshift in order to slow down while also applying the brake when needed. If I make sure to not over rev the engine while downshifting how much more wear does this cause on the engine? over time and is this not a good idea in the long run.

I feel it gives me better control, especially while turning. I'm just wondering how what this method does to the car over time.

 

It really causes no more wear at all and really helps you save your brakes. IMO, you are correct in using both to slow down because the most wear on a clutch is done at start up, not already moving down the road. If you really time it right and are lucky, you only have to hit the brakes at about 10 mph to stop the car, other compression brake it to bring it down to that speed.

 

When I drive my MCa in manual mode I 'downshift' to brake. Timed right, I can usually avoid the brake pedal until about 15mph, although I like to flash the brakes every couple seconds to let the car behind me know I'm slowing down.

 

Use the engine to speed up.
Use the brakes to slow down. (brake pads are cheap)

Compression braking on long descents make sense, but otherwise, the above rule applies.

 

... Replacing four brake pads is cheaper than one clutch.

That said, I too do more than my fair share of downshifting to slow my car. For one thing, it sounds a lot better with the poping an crackling of a JCW exhaust that just laying into the binders.

 

Different methods under different conditions.

Sometimes I'll do one or the other or a combination of both. I do keep in mind that brake pads are cheaper then clutches.

But I go with the situation at hand.

 

I do both...have always done on cars that have stick.

 

If improperly done (as in not rev-matching), downshifting can easily cause far more clutch wear than starting off. For example if the RPM drops to idle during a slow downshift and you smoothly let out the clutch to raise engine rpm to 5500rpm, you've just caused as much wear as slipping the clutch from 5500rpm to start off--something you wouldn't do.

It's fun to practice rev-matching until you can pull it off perfectly every time though, and that doesn't cause any increased wear to the clutch.

 

Would it be more entertaining if you had a remote camera set up so you could watch your rotors glow orange?

 

I am trying to wear out my stock pads so I can easily justify ceramic replacement pads. I never use downshifting to slow down.

 

Eric is correct ...

Brakes are far cheaper than transmissions ...

Glowing rotors? See here
Best picture of glowing rotors I have ever seen. 24 hours on the Ring.

 

You have carbon fiber rotors? Must have been an option I missed!

Chows: I wouldn't say the rotors on the Porsche are glowing. The rear's aren't, and I see a change in the overall lighting of the car near the front. I also see some orange reflecting off of the body. Could seem like the car was transitioning from dark to sunrise/sunset, and rotors are reflecting the sun. See the lighting difference between the front and rear rims? There is a shadow over part of the front rotor, that wouldn't be there if there was a glow. The spokes on the wheels are picking up some orange light though, from an outside source.

 

I generally use a combination of engine and wheel braking into any turn requiring a decent amount of deceleration and maybe 50 - 60% of the time when I'm approaching slower traffic on the highway from a high rate of speed or a stoplight/sign. I've been doing so in all off my cars since a few months after I learned to drive a manual (4 cars and around 12 years now) and haven't had any clutch issues so far. I'm pretty decent at matching revs, generally light on the clutch, and I try to make sure I'm not winding up over 4.5K RPM or so on the downshifts, though.

It's totally possible that I've just got really lucky. I have never owned a manual past 80K miles so it's also entirely possible that the next owner of my vehicles wound up paying for my habits sometime down the road.

The couple of downsides that I have experienced personally are increased gas usage from throttle blipping (especially in cars with laggy drive by wire) and the additional likelyhood of getting rear ended on the highway by drivers behind me w/ bad depth perception and/or short attention spans. After a few close calls almost getting rear ended, I generally try to limit straight line engine braking to long range panic stops where I'm usually on the brakes at the same time and stop lights which are about to turn green as I approach.

I have also had a couple of driving instructors advise against engine breaking, but I never got a good explanation why, just "it's faster". My personal feeling is that I have way more control to the apex of the turn and less of an upset of balance rolling back onto the throttle on exit, but my main focus in performance driving has been having fun rather than achieving the greatest absolute speed/lowest times.

 

Hmm, I picked that off another post elsewhere that said "rotors aglow". The reflections on the front could be off the rotors but you could be right. The same color is a bit of the body panel and maybe the sun. I understand the rears not glowing.

Yeah, maybe your right but still a good pic. That was the Alzen Cayman that came in 4th overall at the Ring, an independent w/out factory backing.

Hmm, good catch Gromit

 

Wonderful photo, to me it looks like a sunset being reflected.

Back on topic. I always downshift & brake. Never had a clutch problem or brake problem.

 

I'm with Crashton on this, been engine braking on every manual I've ever had. This includes cars and trucks that I put well over 100,000 miles on and to date I haven't replaced a clutch.

I've been told the MINI clutch is weak, guess I'll agree if it becomes my first clutch that needs replacing.

 

As long as you match revs, engine braking is just fine. Much better to be in the right gear for the speed than to be "coasting" in gear.

 

I'm an expert on sunsets, that ain't no sunset being reflected. Look at the windows, nothing. The front brakes take most of the brunt in braking, that's why they are heated up. Sheesh.

Back on topic: I downshift most of the time to stay in practice, but try to be gentle. But I always look to see if the driver behind me is on the phone. Since I live in the mountains, it's a good idea to stay in a lower gear than ride the brakes.

 

I'm pretty new to manual and my Mini was my first manual car. From the very beginning I always downshifted because my friends told me its better on the brakes. I had a roommate that told me when downshifting its always good to rev match because it causes less strain on the clutch. I'm just not sure if I'm even doing it right though. But yeah I prefer downshifting to 3rd gear than brake at neutral.

 

Seems like most on this thread have the understanding. The issue is clutch v brake pads. It isn't an engine wear issue.

Okay, in the old days brakes weren't so good, and there wasn't as much money. People didn't want to wear out their brakes and they really didn't want to lose their brakes to fade, a real and normal driving issue.

These days pads are cheap compared to owner's income. Fade is rare except on the track or trucks. Downshifting is more about being in the gear you want to be in, not in saving brakes or clutch: Match revs. Brake to control speed, shift to be in the gear for the exit. On long downgrades be in the proper gear for fun. It sounds better than the brake and it separates the MINI in the MOUNTAINS folk from the flatlanders.

Nostaligia: In the old old days, think early 50's Nash . . . suicide doors, teens at every corner: The issue was repairing the brakes or wearing out the Converse tennis shoes. Speed limit 25 . . . approching the stop sign, use the super matic to slow to 20, rub the right tires against the curb . . signal the folk, the doors fly open and a teen at four corners scrub their booties on the pavement! Maybe you stop, maybe you don't.

 

You may just be right. That picture could have been taken at sunrise. Just because the windows don't show reflection doesn't mean anything. They are at a different angle to the sun than the rotors are. I really don't know why I'm bothering with this. As a self proclaimed expert you know it all already. Sheesh back at ya. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Thank you for explaining how from brakes take the brunt in braking. Very informative.

Back on topic.... I'm still downshifting & braking. Still no problems.

 

When I was a teen learning to drive 30 years ago my dad would yell at me if I didnt downshift and brake,I'm pretty sure it's why I still do it .

 

My dad too. He's 90 now & still yelling.

 

+1. Save the clutch & engine. Pads are cheap.

 

This is an oft-discussed topic on car forums. People are passionate about "their" techniques. What it really comes down to is this:

RULE: Brakes are for slowing, engine is for going.

PERMUTATIONS
1. If you're slowing and need to get going soon (slowing for a corner, entering a corner where the throttle will be used for car control, slowing when you know you'll need to be "in gear" - example, slowing for a stale red light that's changing - with no cross traffic), then downshift so your car is ready for the coming acceleration.

1. a. Do not downshift in the middle of a corner, you can upset the attitude of the car.

1. b. Do not "downshift to a stop" unless you either have a sequential manual transmission (in which case that's the only way to be in 1st gear after slowing), or you want to sound like a WRC rally driver wannabe.

2. If you're slowing for a stop (stop sign, stoplight), use brakes or minimal engine braking. Brake until the engine gets below 1500RPM or so, then clutch in for a smooth stop. You're just stopping, after all! Smoothness is the goal here.

Any other use of engine braking is simply for aural satisfaction or "car dancing" (edit: which is GREAT - I do it all the time!). I personally LOVE the sound and feel of rolling on/off the throttle, heel-and-toe downshifting for corners and taking a back road at 8/10ths - KNOWING it's not the "fastest way" but not WANTING to go at 10/10ths. There's nothing wrong with this, provided the person paying for car maintenance is aware of the tradeoffs - and I am.

Downshifting-to-decelerate makes the engine rev at x000 rather than idle, so it turns over a few more times, and it causes the engine to turn the energy in your forward momentum into the heat of compression (and resultant sound), rather than the brakes turning momentum into heat via friction. This puts wear on the engine, but it's negligable, really.

(all permutations assume good rev-matching downshift techniques. Downshifting without rev-matching is just using a clutch as a brake pad - an ERB idea - Expensive Really Bad - and it sounds just dreadful).