And also note that 211hp in metric units is 208hp in our units...

 

The heads are the same part number for the JCW and the Cooper S, and contains all the identical components

Part number 11127577371

This is a common part to all R56 cooper S and JCW models (as well as other variants) http://realoem.com/bmw/partxref.do?p...=on&showeur=on

Believe what you want about the marketing, but the only engine components that are different are the pistons and rings.

Robbo

 

Curious. If you stated something in company literature that was purposefully incorrect, it would be illegal. It would make no sense for BMW to run that risk. Alternatively, it could be that they are only stocking one replacement part. So, it isn't about believeing marketing; it's the legalities involved.

 

Like I said before. State the facts and now we all have. Done

 

Holy crap...way to bring a dead nearly two year old thread back to life!

 

Thanks for bringing back the dead! I now have a 2009 JCW with a Accessport but otherwise stock( but with a big IC). It would have run over my old R53. (loved it to death, really) And I'm no longer looking for any more power. Even with my 235/17 Star Specs Its too crazy/squirrelly at the higher rpms anyways. Final ????

No extra power needed.

 

So, that's all well and good for you, but there is still the unanswered question about JCW engine internals. I sent messages off to MotoringFile.com and the MC2 Magazine. I haven't heard anything from MotoringFile yet, but I did hear from Barry Brazier at MC2. He passed the question to his Tech Editor for research and inclusion into his next column.

So, we'll see...

Incidentally, the thing about a bigger turbo:
Like everything else, it depends. You need a bigger if you don't get enough air flow at higher RPMs. You would probably also need it if you are going for a big jump in boost pressure. However, there is a distinct possibility that throttle response could be hurt a bit due to spinning up a larger and heavier impeller assembly.

 

Not 100% sure what info you want about the internals. The S and JCW have different pistons. The S has 10.5:1 CR and the JCW has 10:1 CR. The JCS piston is about 2mm thinner than the stock S. This allows for more boost with the same margin of safety (against denotation). I know the S pistons and rods are cast. I believe the JCW are also cast. I don't know what else you want.

 

Post 27 and 28. Personally I doubt that BMW would put false statements in their press release. Assuming that to be true, what is the explanation for the part number in Post 27? This topic about differences has come up before. The US JCW press release reads similar to the UK one, although not exactly the same. So, hopefully this can get clarified once and for all.

 

I see this is about the head now. Sorry, I can't help you.

 

The part number highlighted in Red, refers to the N14 engined Cooper S and JCW brand new bare cylinder head, with a build date/supply and factory fit from May (05) 2009 onwards, to the end of the manufacture/supply and factory fit of the N14 engine, in both the Cooper S and JCW models.

This next part number: 11127534708 refers to the N14 engined Cooper S and JCW brand new bare cylinder head, with a build date/supply and factory fit date from November (11) 2005 – April (04) 2009

Way back in May (05) 2009 I took delivery of my brand new Cooper S Clubman (R55) as fitted with the N14 engine with a build date of April (04) 2009 I wanted the factory JCW model, however at the time I placed my initial order in 2009 the JCW Clubman (R55) was not available.

I too had read the press release and official JCW literature, that the cylinder head as fitted to the JCW N14 engine was a stronger revision over the cylinder head as fitted to the Cooper S, so armed with that knowledge I went to my local BMW MINI dealer to order a JCW cylinder head, and to my surprise I couldn't order a JCW cylinder head, as the JCW cylinder head was the same corresponding part number!

quick brief: I wanted the JCW cylinder head, as I was going to track my BMW MINI, back to the mystery, so what now I asked myself, I asked the parts guy to look into this for me, I also did my own research, and at the end of the day, every path led to the same corresponding part number for the cylinder head on both the Cooper S and JCW as fitted with the N14 engine.

So I bit the bullet and ordered a complete brand new JCW N14 engine, long story short, when the JCW N14 engine arrived, I put it in my workshop on the bench right next to a brand new Cooper S engine, yes I went a little mad and ordered one of those too, my reason behind the engine purchases was to build a dedicated track BMW MINI, that said, I now had 2 complete N14 engine variants Cooper S and JCW side by side.

I methodically took them apart, and to cut a long story short, they were and are identical in every way, apart from the Mahle pistons.

 

So the JCW has Mahle forged pistons, apposed to the cast ones of the S?

 

Ok, now that counts as research.

 

We have laws regarding Truth In Advertising as I assume that you do in the UK, as well as in Germany. It would be patently stupid for a major commercial concern to lie in their advertising as it's too easy to prove them wrong. It will be interesting to see what the real answer is from BMW.

 

As i said earlier, I sent messages off to MotoringFile.com and the MC2 Magazine. I never did hear back from MotoringFile, but I did exchange messages with the folks at MC2 Magazine. The messages appear below.

NOTE:
At the moment there is no specific information from BMW/MINI as to what they did, or didn't, do. Matt Richter has offered his opinion as to what may have happened, but be aware that it is his speculation.


> From: Don
> <flatlander_48@softhome.net<mailto:flatlander_48@softhome.net>>
>
> Date:
>
> Dec-20-12 10:59 AM
>
> Hi:
>
> As you may know, there are often questions on the forums about what are the differences between the S and factory JCW engines. One reference is the original UK press release:
> http://www.motoringfile.com/2008/02/27/mini-jcw-officially-released-uk
> -version/
>
> The Works engines from Hams Hall also come with reinforced, specially polished pistons, as well as a strengthened cylinder head for optimised stability and a modified cylinder gasket. The intake valves and valve seat rings have also been upgraded with stronger and more resistant materials.
> This reduces the engine's compression ratio.
>
> The USA press release reads similarly, except for mention of the sodium filled exhaust valves and camshaft construction differences.

However, one forum participant found that S and factory JCW replacement heads share the same part number. This is found at: http://realoem.com/bmw/partxref.do?part127577371&showus=&showeur=
and the part number is: 11127577371. Legally it would be just plain silly for BMW to purposefully put of false information. My only conclusion is that instead of stocking S heads and JCW heads, they have chosen to only stock JCW heads. So, if you have an S and need to replace the head, you get the uprated JCW head. Anyway, can you shed some light on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Don


> From: Barry Brazier [mailto:publisher@mc2magazine.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:15 PM
> To: Don
> Cc: Matt Richter
> Subject: Re: Website Contact From: www.mc2magazine.com
>
>
> Thanks Don. Sent to Mat for his research and input for next issue's
> column...
> Merry Christmas,
> Barry


> This one is a bit of a stumper. First things first though, these press releases are just that, press materials for marketing, not engineering documentation. As having been someone who used to write marketing spin, all I can say is just use this stuff as a guide, but not a repository of facts.
>
I'm just guessing here, but it would be plain dumb of MINI to actually have separate castings for the different heads (if in fact there are any different heads) so that would leave the differences in assembly/finish work. For the Tritec, the same casting was used and the two heads were only different in that a little CNC exhaust port work was done to improve flow a bit on the JCW heads. Same valve, same cam, same rockers, same seats, same everything except for the port work.... Anyway, I don't know if it's just BS or if the head is actually a "stronger design". Stronger than what? Also, the writing of the release copy is a bit vague.... Typically one changes compression ration via thicker gaskets, shorter con rods, or different piston top shapes. Valve seats have close to nothing to do with compression ratios.... I'm guessing that they're using the thicker head gasket to drop compression a bit so they can run higher peak boost on pump gas without detonation. Anyway, this passage in the press release is a perfect example of how something that sounds pretty impressive is actually close to content free when read with a critical eye. (As an aside, the art of marketing literature is to make the non-existent or minor differences seem like a revolution. I'm guessing that there is some of that at play here too!)
>
> So what does this all mean? It means a) that I really have no clue and that b) we won't really know till some of the engines start getting taken apart or someone from inside MINI/BMW really speaks up. But using the parts numbers as a guide is the BEST WAY to see if there are really differences, or if it's just spin.
>
> Also, one can look at part number changes. If the Prince S head part number has been changing over time, then something in the assembly has been changed. Since it's first introduction, it's had valve train issues (till the double vanos upgrade made all the lifter noise parts go away!) so I wouldn't be surprised if they had done some upgrades...
>
> Sorry I don't have an absolute answer, so all I can give is my best guess. I'm sure the truth will out eventually.
>
> Matt
>
>
> Matt Richter, Ph.D.
> Co-Founder, FES LLC
> 325 Sharon Park Dr. Ste 652
> Menlo Park, CA 94025
> (650) 241-1161 Office
> (415) 816-2584 Cell
> (650) 332-1990 Fax
> www.fes-auto.com<http://www.fes-auto.com>
> www.drobnxs.com<http://www.drobnxs.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: flatlander_48@SoftHome.net [mailto:flatlander_48@SoftHome.net]
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 4:30 PM
To: Matt Richter
Cc: Barry Brazier; Don
Subject: RE: Website Contact From: www.mc2magazine.com


Matt:

Thanks for the reply. Yes, this is quite confusing. I understand what you say about how press releases are created. While it may not have black and white clarity, it also can't be outright untrue. This is what makes this a really odd situation. It also doesn't help matters when the UK and the US press releases don't line up very well. For example, where the UK press release says " The cylinder head has similarly had its wall thickness increased to reduce any localised stress or hot spots when running at peak output.", the US press release says "The engines are fitted with reinforced and specifically ground pistons as well as a cylinder head with optimized rigidity and modified gasketing.". Granted "optimized rigidity" is a bit difficult to determine if you don't know the original loading and resultant stress conditions to compare, but "wall thickness" could be measured without a lot of trouble if you had the parts. If someone were to check and found no real difference, to me that's way beyond the realm of spin.

Up to this point I have had no reason to believe that BMW is anything but a reputable company. I don't think they would do anything consciously that would upset this notion. But, from the information that we have, maybe there might be something that they are not telling us. Clearly there are some questions that need answers because, as it sits, there could be a bit of a cloud over BMW. I agree with what you said about stocking one replacement head. Given the relative volume of the population and the probabilities of failure, it would make sense.

This is a recent entry on the forum where this discussion has been taking place: https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/report.php?p645538

Also, may I share your message with the forum? As an owner of a 2009 factory JCW Clubman, I'm really interested in resolving this or at least bringing it into the realm of plausibility.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Don


Hi Don,

When I did real industrial stuff, when we'd have an improvement like what is claimed in the release about the head, we'd be left with the decision to propagate two parts, two castings, two inventory control headaches etc.... As a manager, I'd just cut the head improvements across all heads, and call it a "continuous improvement" across the board. But this is just what I'd have done, and isn't based on any specific info from MINI. With my marketing hat on, I'd advertise the improvement for the performance car, and also market the fact that the "improved" head is on the standard car, and tie it into some mythical performance improvement implication, and just sell it.... Spin it as how we used our racing/performance division to improve the more common cars...

As far as BMW/MINI being a reputable company, yes they are, for the most part. But every now and then, there is evidence that from time to time they act less than honorably.. Power steering pumps in the 1st gen is an example. The part failed too early with great regularity, yet MINI/BMW pretended all was well for a long time. Here in the US, they STILL don't admit it's a bad part! This happens from time to time in all companies. To be fair, it seems to happen less than most with BMW, but it still happens.

Overall, I don't have any specific information on this one for you. If you want to re-post, have at it, just make sure that the fact that I'm just speculating is clear......

Anyway, let me know if there is resolution!

Matt



Matt Richter, Ph.D.
Co-Founder, FES LLC
325 Sharon Park Dr. Ste 652
Menlo Park, CA 94025
(650) 241-1161 Office
(415) 816-2584 Cell
(650) 332-1990 Fax
www.fes-auto.com
www.drobnxs.com