For WI injection Bart? Not very good...First they wouldn't fit from the outside and second, they would need to reach the center of the core in order to work right...the atomized injection is very fine and would not reach the other side of the DFIC...

The heads of these injectors are specifically designed to atomize the liquid...bar sprayers would not be efficient...

 

Sid, I think it would just be a matter of convenience to use the bungs. I plan on placing mine in the SC outlet horn.

 

Thinking Meth/Water. That's a shame for I don't like the tapping of the horn.

The bungs would be ideal - I guess a custom nozzle that would be long enough to reach the center and aim down would be required.

 

all the crap you can put in there does effect air flow. Tapping the horns are nice, as the nozzle is pretty much flush. Also, the squirt is perpendicular to the air flow, and in the horn, the air velocity is higher, all good things.

Matt

 

It's not a big ordeal Bart...Just make sure you remove it so you don't get any chips loose inside...

Like Matt says...plumbing inside the airstream is not a good idea...

 

Tapping into the horn is the only way. The bungs on the DFIC are in the wrong place, so it would require some sort of bar. Remember there is a blower to push the mix through the IC so the nozzle placement & angle are important. Perpendicular is good but there may be a better angle, been looking at some burner nozzles.

It would be much easier to plug the hole in the horn than a hole in the IC when, or if, the system is removed.

 

Agreed.
Good to have you back.
Three more posts for you to hit a grand.

 

No big deal coming from the guy that has no fear whatsoever - first to make holes in the hood, plumbed NOS & Water/Meth, and more if I just thought about it some more ....... I was just wondering if I could follow suit in the mod without tapping a permanent visible hole.

But the point is taken - its not the place to do it.

 

Thanks much Partsman.

Bart, it's calculated "no fear".

 

I have to disagree on plugging the hole on the I/C vs the air horn.

If you tap the airhorn from the top sure - but explain that brass plug when you go to sell the car. Taping the aftermarket i/c means you can remove it all without even a hint this was ever done. Might not be a perfect place to mount it, but it does seem to work rather well.

 

An easier tig weld than the IC - more mass ( for me anyway ).

For a top mount like what we are using, not a DFIC, the location where you have your nozzle should work well. The dynamics of the DFIC are quite different. Still looking at all the possibilities...........

 

I'd ordered a check valve before Jeff offered to send me one, and the one I ordered took forever to get to me! Deb at Flyin' Miata was great help, her vendor, not so much so.

Anyway, I don't have data yet, just some comments. When the engine is screaming, I can't even notice the pump running! I have to really, really listen for it. It's not because the pump is that quiet, but it's in the engine compartment so other sounds drown it out. Also, you have to really look for it to see it there at all. I like that.

If I were to do it over again, I'd put the nozzle where I could change it without taking the horn out of the car. In hindsight, it's obvious, but I was all on the stealth install, so now to change nozzles it's a bit of a pain.

When I have both good weather and some time, I'll do some data runs with logging of power, timing and T-MAP values.

More to come!

Matt

ps, I was doing some reading, and just started to laugh. In the early days of water injection, someone did some work... They found that for SCed engines, you can add gas to supress detonation up to a point, but at that point it didn't matter how much gas you injected, it would still knock. If you used an anti-knock agent (read water) not only can you extend operation to higher cylinder pressures (higher boost) but you can then tune away the extra gas to get more power WITH EVEN BETTER GAS MILEAGE than a car without water injection! How long ago was this? Well, if you want to read the original text, it is "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine", by Sir Harry Ricardo, written in the 1930s! It goes into more depth as well...... But I'm still laughing at the information we all are "rediscovering" because we've all lost our library cards!

 

Matt,

Tried replying earlier, but my computer is giving me fits. So, if this post ends up being a repeat, please forgive me.

Glad to hear of your progress. I think that you stealth efforts are worthwhile, and I'm sure, that after you sort things out, you'll be very happy with what you did.

There is an electric solenoid type valve in 1/8" pipe that is available, if the check valve disappoints.

BTW, call me crazy, but I have started adding Water Wetter to my injection water supply. The rationale, or hope, is that the reduced surface tension of the water will improve atomization, which will improve vaporization, which will improve charge cooling. Have to dream about something in my spare time, don't I?

Looking forward to your data logging results. Wouldn't expect miracles. But would expect some discernable improvement in charge temperature consistency. Cannot data log, yet. But I think that by lap #2 and certainly by lap #3 that MINI's get pretty heat soaked. I find that I have an easier time passing towards the end of the run session because I don't suffer from the same degree of heat soak. This phenomenon is what I am referring to as "consistency".

Regards,
John Petrich in Sammamish

 

Back in the day they added alcohol to concrete because there was no way to make the water wetter in the cold - same principal. Meth is cheaper with almost the same result.

This has nothing to do with this topic but it's an easy FYI read about alcohol as a fuel http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/farmmgt/05010.html

"Well, if you want to read the original text, it is "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine", by Sir Harry Ricardo, written in the 1930s! It goes into more depth as well...... But I'm still laughing at the information we all are "rediscovering" because we've all lost our library cards!"

Matt, it's always this way. Sometimes you need to take a few steps into the past to go foward And where did you find Sir Harry's book?

 

Steve,

Not sure we are talking about the exact same thing. I was referring to using Water Wetter and the latent heat of vaporization of water to cool the intake air charge. I didn't think that alcohol would reduce water surface tension in the same way as Water Wetter. Is that true?

I am aware of alcohol being used as a fuel, like you cited at the bottom of you post. I thought that adding methanol to water injection was a means to introduce some additional fuel to the system.

Straighten me out.

John Petrich in Seattle

 

The water wetter decreases the surface tension as you say & will allow for a larger injected shape. The meth will also increase the shape much the same way but not the same as the water wetter ( this would take a very long post ). Don't get me wrong, the water wetter sounds like a very good idea & 1 that adds more fuel to this thread. In fact I'm going out to the garage & read the lable on the bottle of Red Line as soon as I finish this post.

The meth, at a 6 - 1 ratio, would not add enough fuel to make a big change in AF with the small amount of injected mix. The link is a short explaination so that the introduction of a meth & water mix would be better understood.
I have used meth as a fuel for many years in various race applications & IMHO you can see some benifit by changing the water/meth ratios without altering the AF, as the ECU sees it. In theory the ECU should see a cooler charge & hold timing = more power....

 

is the water wetter safe to be spraying into the intake path? Are you mixing water + water wetter or water meth and the ww?

 

I read some excerpts reprinted in a turbo charging book from 84. But it's in reprint from Sir Harry's company!

http://www.ricardo.com/ricardoStore/...ion=2&P_ID=149

Matt

 

I've been away for a few months, but it's terrific to come back and so much interest and adoption of water/alcohol injection!

 

If one would be able to use 100% water instead of 50/50 meth/water?

 

Thanks for the link. I'm going to see if the UMAS library can get it.

 

But you want clean (preferably distilled) water to keep deposits down. Also, this stuff has been around since the 40s (30s really), so there is LOTS and LOTS of information out there if you look.

Matt

 

I will do some researchin'

 

Hi Matt!

I´m burning for some data.
any news????

Mick

 

Sorry, been very busy latey. This is the test from Davids car we did a couple weeks back.

ALTA WATER/METHANOL INJECTION TEST!