Awesome!

 

in this thread...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=878500&page=1

There's even data!

This is from some turbocharged car. Upper curve is with WI, same car, same tune, boost switch set for 14 PSI or something....

Here are some IATs from another car....


Now I'm itchin to get this all worked out to play...

Matt

 

Vivid racing. $10 They also have a large selection of nozzles, as you'd need to run some pretty small ones....

Matt

 

Let the WI discussion begin!

MATT!!
That is so great that you got that installed! While this system is a WI system it is very different from our PWI-1 system.

With your system should have been a crack valve. If you didn't get it, i have one to send you, just let me know. This is very important as the vacuum WILL suck the water from the tank.

Nozzle Placement is important. The placement does make a difference as to how the Water/meth effects the combustion. For the most part, the best place is after the IC. This gives the best in cylinder cooling. The farther away from the IC, the more effeicient it makes the IC.

TampaMCS,
I wouldn't either, spray before the SC, but some guys do it. In the SC v8 world, tons of people do it. I don't think it is the best way, but most of the SC v8's have no room after the SC to put it.

PARTSMAN,
Like this:


4 nozzles isn't necessary, but it would sure look cool! We only have .3mm nozzles which flow 60cc/min. So 240 total cc/min compared to 1360cc/min of fuel is a pretty high percentage of water to fuel. Normally a 10-15% is optimal. That is almost 20% so it would be a bit much. This will not work with basic WI systems, but with our PWI-1, you can turn the flow down! So port injection would work great.

But also a single nozzle on the outlet of the IC should work just fine.

The doctors pictures, don't do the nozzle justice. The mist coming out of them is very very fine. I wouldn't even classify them as droplets. Its so fine you can't really see them until they land on something, then you notice how wet it it is getting.

Longboard Mini,
It is more expensive, but it is very different than other systems. Just keep that in the back of your mind.

The pump flows 380cc/min and with a primer pump (windshield washer style) goes to 540cc/min. So you can run plenty of water for any Mini with any bolt on part!

Matt,
Do like the install! Clean and simple!

 

I had an interesting conversation with a guy at Snow today, (please keep in mind that I am still in "sponge" mode about water/meth injection, and trying to soak up all this info) anyway, we discussed the nozzle placement on the MCS and he stated that putting it before the throttle body would help in keeping the SC cooler, also cooling the charge before/as it leaves the SC, as well as adding some "lubrication" to the rotors. I don't know how true this is, but it does make sense.

We went on to discuss multiple nozzles(one for each port) he said it really was not necessary, as the mist is so fine that it will be carried into each runner evenly. I agree with ALTA2, as it would look pretty cool(like it does in the pic he posted) but on our cars the intake is pretty much hidden, so no one would see it anyway.

 

Partsman,
It would be hidden but, if someone was going to use 100% meth instead of a 50/50 mixture, the .3 nozzle (4) will work just fine. But other than that, a single nozzle will work, and be much simpler.

You will see some results soon. But there is a huge difference in the basic systems.

You can spend $400 on a system that injects too much water/meth at low RPM, and not enough at upper RPM's. You can also spend this same $400 on a system that doesn't have safety features built in to save your motor if the water runs out.

The extra money spent on our system is well worth it. I know many are thinking that they want to test this out and see what can be done with it. So they are interested in spending as little as possible. But once we show you what can be done, i think you will change your mind.

So hold off in buying either sytem until we prove to you the added value of the PWI-1 system, i think you will be impressed!

 

Thanks for the reply.
I don't doubt that your system will impress me. It looks very well put together, and with the features it has, definitely top shelf.
The $830 price tag is a little out of reach for me. I would love to have a system as sophisticated as yours, but the cost is prohibitive.

 

I'm glad to see WI becoming fashionable with Minis...finally

I've been running a home built system for the past two years and everything has been trouble free...along with a great peace of mind knowing that I have a large safety overhead from detonation...Yes, I've had a few LED, relay failures and various bad line choices, connectors that split and generally created needless nuisance for me. But I've finally sorted things out and the system is running smoothly. Although my system is primitive by comparison to Aquamist, it nevertheless works well enough for the fixed boost SC. I started with a solenoid switch to control flow but that eventually failed so I moved on to a failsafe brass check valve.

As for choice point of injection...from what I understand, pre TC or SC is generally discouraged due to impeller wear caused by erosion from high speed impact with water. I used to have a two stage setup but it proved too cumbersome (two of everything!) and since tuning was all guesswork, I chose to go back to single stage with dual stage nozzles...one 2gph nozzle pre IC and one 5gph nozzle post IC. I use quick fit connectors similar to the VR shown above and for general daily use, the pre IC injector is disconnected. For Dragon or track events where the motor will see higher percentage of redline, I will use both injectors. With the pre IC connected, the methanol/water solution sure keeps the IC core clean! Also, when the injection is on, my AIT will drop below ambient!

For the solution, I experiemented with winter mix washer fluid which contains up to 40% methanol but discontinued that practice due to "blue crap" contamination inside the IC. I now use BoostJuice from Snowperformance which is pure 49/51 methanol and distilled water mix.

Although I would love to have an Alta Aquamist setup, I simply can't afford one right now. Maybe someday I'll upgrade when the price is right...I'm a good Beta Tester

BTW, TampaMCS...8psi switch on threshold is a bit too low for a single stage setup. Unless you're using a small 2gph nozzle, you'll smother your motor's response. I have mine set at 10psi and above so the motor is already on it's way to the redline...Also, you'll run out of solution sooner than expected. My 7 quart bottle is estimated to last for one 20 minute session on the track. If you're using the washer reservoir as the holding tank, you'll run out of juice midway through the Dragon run...for what it's worth...




The glyserin filled pressure gauge is for checking proper line pressure which is adjusted at the pump mounted next to the reservoir...Some of you may have noticed this gauge sticking out of my cowl at the Dragon last year...that was for "in flight" monitoring...once set properly (around 125psi relative), I relocated the gauge back under the bonnet

The blue lines connected to the DFIC are for pre/post IC boost readings...

The pre IC injector is on top of the left horn. The post IC injector is on top of the right horn above the N2O injector. What does the methanol solution do when it hits the cold nitrous? Who knows...but it sure goes like hell

7 quart reservoir mounted to MDF base in boot...


Sid

 

I should have jumped on your train when we discussed way back.

Maybe... but the way you have it set up with the plumbing and attention to detail, it's second to none.

Man, i'd like to have one of them blue bottles too.

 

I found the 8 too low, I did return it to 10psi

 

I can help you set up a system and be running by this weekend...it's pretty easy now that I stopped experimenting

My bottle is actually black...that was a bottle my supplier lent me because he was out but had a bunch of filled bottles laying around during his off season...The guy runs 3 bottles on his 900hp Camaro drag car

 

That would be sweet, I will get a hold of you soon. I have a couple other projects to get done.

Only 900?!?! What about a 4th stage to get to an even grand?

 

I too have seen the nozzle before the SC and that is just not a good idea. The companies like snow performance always tell people that it is ok to go before the SC, because of the V8s they get installed on. For a turbo system, it requires a special super fine mist nozzle (which we have) to help with compressor blade errosion. This special nozzle can be used on the SC side, but the nozzle is too small to be the only scource of water.

Also some companies tell you to buy the windshield washer fluild for your injection liquid. THis is not a good idea! It can work, but it is not pure enough. And there is a small amount of soap in it. You need to use racing methanol, and distilled water. Both of these are filtered properly so over time, nothing builds up in the nozzles and filters.

With our system, it is expensive compared to others, but if you compare the Aquamist systems, our price is right in the middle, and with more features. In the summer time you will a system that is less expensive, and will do a similar job.

This is something we have been working on for some time now, just for the concerns mentioned above.

 

or wheel well really. I have a leak in my connection to the tank. If you're dripping water, it doesn't last long at all.....

I was doing some reading on other system. Seems you can get basic water injection for a couple hundred dollars, plus or minus. You can get one version of progressive (based on boost) for a bit more. To get progressive from injector duty cycle is a bit more than that (this is better because it takes into accout both boost and IATs, to give a better ratiometric control of water to gas). To get interlocking safety features is another hundred to two hundred, depending on how hard core you go.

So if you start comparing prices out there, make sure you're doing an apples to apples comparison.

And if you tune for the water/methanol, you better buy the interlock stuff. I'd hate to see a failure of the water injection on a hot day at redline without it! BOOM!

Matt

 

So, Matt--since the water/meth gets injected above a certain pressure, and hence not all the time, is a tune mandatory? Do you still get benefits if you dont change the tune--ie just inject the water/meth at, say, 10psi+, but leave the tune for no injection?
Thanks for all the beta testing you do!

 

Hey Phil...Not to answer for Matt but I haven't tuned for injection simply because I like to leave some overhead room for safety...ie, the injection mix should (in the correct ratio/rate) provide better detonation prevention while not robbing any power...always a nice addition when running WOT often...If I run out of solution, nothing bad will happen...Since the injection is set to take place in my situation above 10psi, casual and moderate driving does not turn the system on...

 

Thanks Sid! Your reply is *perfectly substitutable* for Matt's. I am glad to hear that your system is now running perfectly--it's reassuring since yours is more "homegrown" than Matt's from Alta (I hope I'm not offending here.) It's good to have options, especially if they span some of the expense scale.

cheers,

 

Matt, Sid, ALTA2, or Tampa... does the water/meth solution change the A/F ratios at all? If so, which way?
Remember, i'm still learning, so be nice

 

That's a good question for Matt...my laymen's understanding is that the H2O by itself will have a dampening effect on the combustion as it vaporizes (and absorbs heat) while the methanol serves to counteract this effect (because it is a fuel)...how much the injection rate (of methanol) affects the AF is better left to a scientist to answer...

 

I love the safety net but have you seen more HP?

Longboard

 

I mounted a nice little switch I had with a cool chrome bezel led et voila! A lighted arming switch! The little board you can see is a relay for the G-Tech, I use it for power distribution. The arming switch will only get power with the ignition on..... Just a bit of soldering to do.

1) Tuning. I probably won't tune for the mixture, but that may change. First off, I'm just looking to supress timing retard. Depending on particulars, that may net no to 5 HP. We'll see. IAT vs water flow vs HP would then be the next thing to check out I think, to find the "sweet spot" between cooling and displacing oxygen and choking combustion..... But like Jeff said, to really maximize you need to lean the mixture via ECU or piggy back, and make sure your tank is full, and you have the right progressive system, and on and on. I don't know if I'll go there, probably not, but I'll see what it takes to fight the timing retard. Kind of like MSFITOY.

2) A/F ratio. No clue. Water SHOULDN"T do anything, as it doesn't burn. But who knows what the temp differences do to combustion. I don't. Methanol does burn, so it should get richer. Don't know how much difference there is for tune for max power with water vs water/meth mix. Ask someone with more experience.... I really have no idea.


Back to the garage!


Matt

 

WI is a very old solution for detonation. J C Whitney as well as the local speed shops use to sell kits that had as much spin as "Wonder Bread". It was only water back then but they did have some merit.
Today WI is far more sophisticated with the meth mix. The fuel charge is not what you think. The AF could be higher or lower depending on the EGT. A good wide band would be the tool necessary to realy tune the WI. A re-map may or may not be a good idea. IMHO a remap for WI would not be worth the effort & who would have such a tune.
There is science involved in calculating the AF with WI but it's not likely the ECU will see anything other than a slight change with the kind of volume being used. The burn rate for meth is around 8 to 1 compared to around 15 to 1 for gas so that would give you an idea of what the EGT would be.
The bigger question would be, how much meth can you use? When mixing a batch of trick, extra leagle gas, meth is part of the mix ( if you're so inclined ). It's used for cooling the charge. It's important to remember that meth is very corrosive. In the old days to fight the corrosion we used castor oil. It works but it leaves a, not so easily removed, tell.
WI is a great solution for many reasons, tuning is a big 1. As Alta points out the V8 guys see some generous gains, turbo or SC. For the cost of the Alta unit you could do more than replacing the IC, IMO. It looks like Sid has a good handle on the ins & outs with his system with good injector location & careful, well placed, storage with a measurement on the tank for mixing. I know Tampa was kicking himself for dumping his first WI.
So there you go, a little history & less than $.02.........

 

Great stuff

I love the NAM R@D team.

Longboard

 

1 thing I should have mentioned ( needed to find some old notes ). Sid, I run 80% meth on my NOS car at 30 PSI through #28 jet. This is on a carburated car, 2 Weber 40 doecs w/ injectors 4@ 1 per bore mounted in in the air cleaners. This is good enough to keep the EGT in the low 13s with a cast iron head ( things go very wrong above 13 with cast iron - the temp begins to run away ). Aluminum will support much higher temps so there is much more headroom.f 2 gallons last about 20 minutes or just about as long as the bad blue bottle with my set up (never measured how much each injector would flow - just got bigger containers to hold enough juce to last as long as the bottle). It's worth your time to experiment with your mix.
This 66 Spitfire has had WI on it since the 2 blow ( both were beauts ) with the bottle 1985. When the bottle on it's quite the ride. 250whp in a 1400 lb car........ I haven't driven the car since a tree damaged it ( a Tornado in 2000 ).

Thanks Longboard. This is a pretty good thread, like the opposite of another popular thread, the anti thread, placed near this 1. Can't miss it, it has lots of pages. Couldn't resist, some threads here on NAM really can be productive. Glad to see that Alta has joined in, nice product, the 2 Docs...Hey, life is good, another less than $.02. FYI $.02 is no longer worth $.02.

 

Livin on the edge