It would be neat to do a cost/benefit analysis of sorts. The VGS offers benefits for which most noticed...

Superchargers add heat, yet we disire them for the added power via boost. We've reduced the SC pulley, creating more heat, yet it's beneficial to do so.

Time to revisit what the VGS truly offers, compared to no VGS, and other like options...

 

Absolutely! I just got sent a new filter to test, so once I have a reading on that, I will fabricate up a little plug thingy for the FAD (fresh air diverter) and do some runs. We'll see! I was thinking of a simple ramp-ramp run, run out and plug it up, let it stabilize and do it again...

cheers,

 

A big thanks for all of the testing. Based on the current data how would you summarize the benefits of the DFIC with the DFIC scoop compared to the OEM setup in terms of TE under various conditions, heat soak, heat soak recovery, pressure drop, etc. Thanks

 

Gee, Larry, I wish I could answer your questions. Although I have a MINI, I don't have a Tardis, so I can't go back and measure TE for my earlier setups. So we'll have to rely upon other methods and data, all of which suffer from uncontrolled differences in many variables. In the end, my sense is that the DFIC recovers from short term heat soak very well. About the other questions...I think Matt has shown the pressure drop to be significant but perhaps not too large.

 

While the pressure drop is certainly more than compared to stock, I had more of a drop with the GRS; as measured with an AutoMeter boost/vac gauge, which saves peak readings...

 

I was taking down some data this morning, and got reflective...perhaps I'm too young for that, but whatever. I was making TE observations at cruise (70mph) and realized that TE under these conditions is interesting, but are these conditions the ones that I really care about? Which got me thinking about performance, and what really impresses me about the MINI--and what I'd *really* like my car to do. Of course, turbo charging and other mods will give me more HP, more torque, and way more smiles. But short of that, what can I do to my car -- as it is currently? It's this question that led me down the intake-temperature path to my present place where I can measure IC temperatures. THe problem for me is that it's not really all that exciting driving at 70mph on the freeway! And you certainly don't need a MCS to do it.
My observations suggest to me that the best intake temperatures and greatest TE occur at these constant conditions, and that other "more exciting" phases of the daily commute, temperatures get way higher, and although the TE might be better, I'm still seeing post-core temps of 100F or higher going into the cylinders.
I presume the real solution is a water/meth injection system like Sid's.
Although I haven't formally measured the FAD mod yet, my casual observations to date suggest to me it has a small if even measurable, let alone statistically significant, impact on post-IC temps. At speed, moving through lots of fresh air, nearly everything works to cool the inlet charge, but at slow speeds, bumper to bumper traffic, stop lights and school zones, temperatures just rise, and rise. I need to figure out how to keep temps down under those conditions...
Enough moaning!

 

is a valid data point, but isn't really stressing the system. The load is low, and cooling flow is high. I too (along with Andy) saw very good TEs here, but others have not seen the same effect. I think k-huevo saw different, but I might remember wrong....

Anyway, that's why I like looking at red-line at WOT in second. The load is as high as it can get, and the cooling flow isn't as high as you see on a track straight. The SC is pumping out as hot a charge as you ever saw as well.... AND it's testing something you do care about, performance when floored.

You want to keep temps down at rest? use a fan! Sounds like a joke, but many have done this (maybe not on a Mini!). Also, water to air has a larger heat sink to work with, and also you CAN put fans on it's radiator! So it could be a very good solution to heat soak.

Matt

 

Under normal conditions, regardless of heatsoak and like, the motor will do it's job to get moving off the light even if the timing's been retarded to infant stage...Unless your goal is to get off the light quickly after the IC has been thoroughly toasted...

Couple of ways to do this...

1-Prespray your IC with external water bath or cro agent such as CO2...but this takes time to take effect as you still need to physically wait for the chilling effect of the spray and wait for the IC's mass to cool down...so you sit there and keep spraying sitting at the light...

2-Use Nitrous injection...not such a comfortable thought but the nitrous spray is independent of the IC's temperature as it is mounted down stream and has tremendous chilling effect on the IAT The problem is you come out the other side of intersections like a smokn cannon ball...

3-Use Water/Methanol injection...not as great a chilling effect (nor power) as Nitrous but much safer and more economical Again, the introduction of the spray is independent of the IC's temp as it is down stream and the chill reaction is nearly instantanious...If you are just walking across the intersection, you won't be stomping the pedal hard enough to trigger the spray...so correspondingly, it doesn't matter how fast you are going...But if you ARE in a hurry, WOT will create the psi needed to trigger the spray...just what the motor needs...

 

I like the cruise measurements mainly because they are easy to replicate.
I did high and low rpm cruising. Think 70MPH in 3rd and 4th for example.
I also did hard charges to 70 or so and then watched recovery times. Crude timing by wristwatch but fun and informative just the same.

It's also fun to see inlet temps hit 200º+ but outlet stays low for a while until soak starts when accelerating hard.

Besides, you're a DR.
Navel gazing is expected.

 

DrPhil, is it possible for you to check the IATs at sea level somewhere?
Just curious to see if there is any difference.

 

I've found that the post SC air temp is mostly a function of boost. At 70 mph in 6th gear (or 5th,or 4th), pressure is in the negative range, and the post SC temp is pretty low. So, right, not too exciting, but the results should be meaningful and predictive of what happens at other (steady state) conditions.

Acceleration should be a more discriminating test, but there are a lot more variables. For one, the boost is all over the place -- it's nearly impossible to adjust the gas under brisk acceleration to keep constant boost. Then, you've got the thermal mass issue that Obe raises, which leads to overly optimistic TEs under acceleration. Also, the post SC temps fly up so fast under acceleration that any one particular temp is not too meaningful.

Perhaps the ideal test is to find a long uniform uphill where you can keep the car at a constant speed and boost until the IC reaches steady state. Another idea would be to zip tie the BPV closed, which should raise the post SC temps. Then, you might get a more discriminating test even while cruising.

 

You know, I really appreciate the thoughts of all who respond. Thank you. I learn so much by asking a relatively simple question, or sharing a reflection. Yes, up here in the Ivory Tower all day leads to some navel staring... But when I come down, it's to peak hour traffic and a the challenges of getting a smile a mile out of my beloved MINI.
I will think of more things, tonight, while asleep...

 

It's all good Phil!

Low speed and high engine/SC demand is where the real action is at, I feel... like when going though a series of tight turns, down-shifting, keep the revs up and WOT'ing on exit, at "low" speeds. TE's will not be at their highest there, unlike at constant throttle, no boost, with a plenty of ambient flow at highway speeds...

That said, the scoops, diverter set-up, and flow-through are best put to the test at speed.

 

When I was observing IATs in association with thermal dispersant applications I dismissed steady state outcomes (while the vehicle was in motion) because of the recycled air charge (no load, open by-pass valve). I chose a testing route with varied load requirements and recorded the averages of temps for the average of sample points. That was a simplistic approach where TE was not my focus; IAT was the most important because there were no physical volumetric changes impacting pressure. My only concern was the bottom line.

Out of curiosity I also did comparisons with other MINIs at the same rpm, speed, time span samples, etc., but at different testing routes, in order to see if the observed trends were valid; not an empirically sound method but it did have limited value as test for falsification.

 

I've noticed an interesting pattern with the post-core temps, which is to be expected perhaps. As I sit at a stop light the temperature rises (heat soak). At take off, temps rise faster as the SC does its work, but then as speed and air flow rise, temps fall at a rapid rate. So long as this doesn't repeat too quickly (lots of lights, lots of traffic) temps return to sane levels and stay there. But if repeated, the heat soak eventually takes over and IATs are very high (I've observed 130F with ambient 55F).
I will try to test the FAD this weekend.
The air filter test is done: measurement error and normal variance is too high to detect any real difference between the Alta and the aFe filter. Other differences seem to exist, which I will post in another thread.

 

I ordered a new cooling unit for my desktop CPU (a red-hot Intel Dual Core). I seem to be obsessed with temperatures, since this will be my third cooling unit, and my second liquid cooling system.
However, why I mention this, is that the system uses a Peltier effect to remove heat from two cooling chambers into a radiator.
Is is possible to use the Peltier effect to cool the IC, especially the DFIC, as it has such large flat surfaces? The Peltier device is very thin, about 1/8-1/4" and runs on a relatively low current (4Amps or something). Of course, the IC is producing substantially more heat than a CPU, so perhaps any effective device would be the size of the bonnet! I don't know, I just inquire of all the really smart people on NAM.

 

they aren't very efficient. Nor are they cheap!

Matt

 

If you're not using water, Zalman or Arctic Cooling.......??

The IC is producing a larger area of heat disapation but nowhere near the heat of your Intel Dual Core ( some overclockers are at 70c on air with a good HSF ). The peltier is an interesting idea, something to think about. The IC area may exceed the capability of a peltier. If not - the flow thru design, with its available surface, would be the only IC that could use 1 ( top & bottom surface ). The problem would be, given the size, would it reduce temps far enough or would it be more mass than it's worth for a small percentage of cooling. Don't get me wrong, anything is possible & the idea has good merit...... Just to think of a good way to make it work & that's all there is to it.

 

I'm sorry, but I got so excited about the Peltier that I decided to start a separate thread. No matter where I post it, I've decided the idea is a dead end. I read the fascinating link about the Australian guy (gotta love those Aussies, eh, full of spunk...) who tried a Peltier water spray cooler for his Subaru IC. Well documented, but in the end a total flop.

So back to my IC TE OP. I'm going to test the FAD this weekend, for sure. But I've already started thinking about going back to the OEM IC. Make up a really agressive diverter that fits with the FAD...and works with my super big DF-FAD scoop. And then fabricate an insulator under the OEM IC to block heat from the engine and direct airflow exhausting the IC in a more controlled fashion. I'd love to tilt the IC, but given the shape of the inlet and outlet horns, I don't think more than about 2 deg incline can be achieved.

btw, I'd love to hear more about CPU cooling, but I know that's way OT.

 

I'm never shy of going off topic, and cooling is somewhat releated to what we're talking about.

The reason Peltier coolers don't show up in apps like this is the efficiency. If you want 50 Watts of cooling, you need something more than 200 Watts of power (I actually think it's much worse than this, but you get the idea). Typically for a CPU (that gets very high power densities, but not really high power), the Peltier is used as a heat pump, to suck that heat to a much larger heat sink that's either cooled by a fan on a large heat sink, or a liquid loop that goes to a fan on a large heat sink.

For a car, the power required to actually cool the air a lot means that the power required to drive the peltier would be much too much, and the weight of the systems to provide the power really negate much effect. And the car keeps using up all that cool air, so you have to keep cooling from a high temp.

Some areas where they are used more successfully besides the CPU coolers, is in detector cooling to lower background noise, but then the cooled element is pretty small, and insulated by partial vacuum. Some household applications are those plug in coolers. But they don't do it right away, and use a small amount of power to cool the drinks over a long time. Truely wacky people use them to cool transistors and solid state amplifiers to reduce noise as well.

Matt

 

Could these probes be mounted on top of the IC horns, right before and right after the IC seals?
pros? cons?

 

Actually, I'm somewhat regretting putting them on the DFIC, now that I want to go back and mod the OEM IC! Unfortunately my decision was based on a desire not to remove the in, and out, horns. I did the out once to install the DT-BPV, and that was enough... But I think you're right--if they were mounted in the horns, then testing ICs for TE would be as simple as swapping ICs! Testing for pressure would require further mods, unfortunately.

Given how much work has to be done to swap ICs and probes, I need to figure out how to measure differences. Heat soak is really a big problem...I observed an internal IC probe temp of 130F with an ambient of 30F this morning, after about an hour of just sitting...scary.

 

"I observed an internal IC probe temp of 130F with an ambient of 30F this morning, after about an hour of just sitting...scary."

That's a little on the high side. VGS mod still in place? One morning last week it was 28f. After pounding the snots out of the car on a 30 mile trip , including some city driving, in 122f - out 31f, with VGS.

If you can, go to a shop that has a flow bench. This is a dead accurate measure. The stock OE IC is about -1.24 at 10#. The clasic Alta top mount is about -1.2 at 10#. These numbers were generated last May on a Superflow. These numbers will change slightly depending on air dencity ( but not much ).
To date, all the fences, boxes & venting that I have tried for under hood temp control & cold air ( CAI - IC ) with the IC I'm using now have not worked as well as nothing. The IATs are higher than with the all the stuff in place, but only at speed. Bottom line, the under hood temps are more stable for the kind of driving I do. I look foward to your scoop result - that's the direction I'm heading, more air is better.

Partsman - for the probes IMHO there are no cons. Before I broke my IRT I would check the in & out to get the %. A check across the IC was always a suprise.
The probes - gages used for PCs are 5 or 7v, I'll check ( having a senior moment ). The gages - sensors are are fast enough but they, for the most part, are not too accurate. To me it woulden't matter, all I care about is the %, to others accurate numbers might be important.

 

Remember Steve he said that was after the car had been static for an hour. Nothing will stop things from heating under those circumstances.

His readings are consistently higher than mine so taking that into consideration his 130º is real bad after a hard drive and a rest. Bearing mind all the engine heat will be rising up through the IC.( Yes we all know this but it's worth mentioning )
It's been a while since I've had my gauges in and it was also warmer but those temps don't seem too out of line.

 

I've been thinking about this for a while, and all the reports of the VGS raising intake temps. I've got a heretical theory what's happening.....

First off, the heat comes from the compressing of the intake charge as it exits the SC, working against the boost in the intake. So how can a VGS raise those temps? It's not doing work, it doesn't pump hot air in... There's only one place the higher temps can come from, and that's the SC working against higher pressures. Is it possible that the stock BPV is starting to leak, open a bit, at higher boost? In stock configuration, it's just held closed by the spring. With the VGS, boost above atmostphere will help hold the valve closed (effectivly holding the valve more closed).

Don't know if it's right, but it's the only thing I could come up with. The only other possibility is that starting to build boost earlier in the RPM range may allow the intake tract to heat more, as it's seeing hotter air earlier, and this in turn may heat the charge more......

Any thoughts on this one?

Matt