Drivetrain Types of LSD explanation needed.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,054
Likes: 0
From: As far away from Florida as I can get.
Types of LSD explanation needed.
Ok, here is the deal. Everytime I got to an AutoCross event I end up talking about the car with the instructors. Inevitably the conversation turns to: "Do you have LSD?" Which of course I do on my '06 JCW. The next question is always: "What kind is it?" This is where I get lost.
I know there are different kinds of LSD. But can someone explain what they are, how they work and more importantly, which on come from factory as a part of JCW package?
TIA for the lesson.
I know there are different kinds of LSD. But can someone explain what they are, how they work and more importantly, which on come from factory as a part of JCW package?
TIA for the lesson.
This may help a little...
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm
I'm not sure what the MINI uses, but I would guess that it's a clutch type.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm
I'm not sure what the MINI uses, but I would guess that it's a clutch type.
5th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
From: Cardiff CA
More info than you need
This just arrived on another list to answer a question about aftermarket LSDs
"
For differentials, we have:
OPEN: works well in most situations, until one wheel loses traction, at
which point all power goes to the loose wheel. Has least effect on
handling in turns. Cheapest. No wear components or additional
maintenance. When power is low and the track is open enough, an open
differential can work fine.
PHANTOM GRIP: This is a widget that goes in your open diff. It's
basically a giant spring that forces the spider gears apart. It's a
highly loaded friction device, incapable of transferring much torque
even when new.
PLATE: this is a differential with a multiple disc clutch inside the
carrier. The spring-loaded clutch "breaks away" at 50-75 pounds of
torque for most American passenger cars, 100-125 for Corvettes. This is
the most common type of differential. Torque to the non-spinning wheel
is limited to whatever the breakaway torque is, which is better than
nothing, of course. Even without ramps, the plate type increases
friction with torque through the differental. Replacement springs are
available to adjust the breakaway torque. A plate clutch is a spool
until breakaway torque is reached, so turn-in is affected.
PLATE AND RAMP: This is a plate clutch with ramps machined into the
carrier, that increase clamping load when there's a torque differential
across the axles. As I understand it, they can have a lower breakaway
torque on the plates, so the diff acts more like an open type in normal
driving, then tightens up as a tire starts to spin.
TORSEN: There are several variants of these, not all working exactly
the same. They depend on worm gears for one-way motion. It uses the
pressure angle of the worm gears to transfer torque to the overspeeding
axle just as its torque is lightened compared to the other axle. The
more lightly loaded axle doesn't have to actually overspeed for the
torque to be transferred, it transfers instantly as the torque lightens.
I compare it to a doorstop. A relatively light force on the doorstop
can hold a much larger force from the door by using the friction on the
wedge surfaces.
VISCOUS: This uses the velocity/shear effect of some silicone fluids.
Motion is highly damped until a sharp point, when the fluid begins to
resist flow so much it basically locks up.Viscous differentials are very
common as center diffs in OEM 4wd applications. They have been used in
some OEM FWD applications. They work well as a street RWD application .
Theoretically, the viscous diff is almost perfect - it is an open
differential until it sees a small amount of speed difference between
the axles, then it softly locks up. Unfortunately, I've found reports -
"net lore", unfortunately - that the viscous diffs lose effectiveness
when they get hot, essentially turning into open diffs until they cool
back down. For street, drags, and autocross, and even for mild track
work, this probably wouldn't be a problem. Depending on how tight the
track was and how hard the driver pushed the car, it might not be a
problem on a long track. However, viscous diffs in the aftermarket seem
to be *very* limited in
applications, and I haven't seen one for the 7.5" GM. I'd be very
interested if I could find one that would fit my application.
GEAROTOR: This has clutches applied by hydraulic pressure generated by a
gerotor pump between the two axles. The pump volume, clutches and
pressure bleeds can be tuned to provide a wide variety of lockup
strategies.
SPOOL: This just connects the left and right wheels together and to
hell with it. The locked rear imparts initial understeer, and can cause
oversteer later in the turn. Tight turns will bind the suspension until
a tire slips. The spool is the lightest, strongest, and most
predictable rear end (not a differential, since there isn't one), and
absolutely transfers all the power 50/50 to both wheels. But it can be
very hard to live with.
DETROIT LOCKER: This is a jaw and ramp system, originally designed for
trucks. It's a spool with a breakaway torque, functioning similarly to
a plate clutch. The noise and vibration of the jaw clutches
aredisconcerting to many drivers, and some claim the sudden unlocking
upsets the car. On the other hand, the Locker doesn't depend on friction
components, just springs and ramps, so it won't generate heat or wear
rapidly like the friction types.
AIR LOCKER: These are made in Australia. They have an enormous product
range, from Suzuki Samurais to OTR trucks. The Air Locker is a pneumatic
jaw clutch on the carrier; it simply locks the two axles together when
commanded. So it's an open differential by default, and a spool when
you want it to be. The actuation time is very fast. It would be simple
enough to fangle a Stamp type controller to lock and unlock it
automatically at the track, or wire it alongside a traction control
device.
ZAHNRAD FABRIQUE (ZF): Came to prominence in Germany in the 30's. It
used outer and inner cam tracks bearing on sliding blocks in an driven
intermediate carrier. The tighter the fit in the carrier the less slip
between wheels. All of those formula cars that had swastikas on the
outside had Z-Fs inside! Popular (or perhaps the only game in town)
through the mid 50's!
UNKNOWN: a lot of what I've found refers to diffs by brand or product
names, and the web sites for the vendors often don't bother to tell you
what the hell it is they're selling. Paul Van Valkenburgh and Carroll
Smith refer to a bunch of stuff I can't find anywhere; I suspect they're
talking about specialty Formula 1 stuff you'd order with your Weisemann
or Hewland transaxle.
----------------------
An annoying problem is that many of these differentials are service
items - they don't last forever, and servicing them is a hassle and can
be expensive.
PLATE, PLATE AND RAMP, PHANTOM GRIP: all have wear surfaces, and can
last a year or less if raced often.
SPOOL, DETROIT LOCKER, AIR LOCKER, VISCOUS: wear is not an issue with
these.
TORSEN: are generally non wearing beyond normal worm and wheel gear
behavior."
"
For differentials, we have:
OPEN: works well in most situations, until one wheel loses traction, at
which point all power goes to the loose wheel. Has least effect on
handling in turns. Cheapest. No wear components or additional
maintenance. When power is low and the track is open enough, an open
differential can work fine.
PHANTOM GRIP: This is a widget that goes in your open diff. It's
basically a giant spring that forces the spider gears apart. It's a
highly loaded friction device, incapable of transferring much torque
even when new.
PLATE: this is a differential with a multiple disc clutch inside the
carrier. The spring-loaded clutch "breaks away" at 50-75 pounds of
torque for most American passenger cars, 100-125 for Corvettes. This is
the most common type of differential. Torque to the non-spinning wheel
is limited to whatever the breakaway torque is, which is better than
nothing, of course. Even without ramps, the plate type increases
friction with torque through the differental. Replacement springs are
available to adjust the breakaway torque. A plate clutch is a spool
until breakaway torque is reached, so turn-in is affected.
PLATE AND RAMP: This is a plate clutch with ramps machined into the
carrier, that increase clamping load when there's a torque differential
across the axles. As I understand it, they can have a lower breakaway
torque on the plates, so the diff acts more like an open type in normal
driving, then tightens up as a tire starts to spin.
TORSEN: There are several variants of these, not all working exactly
the same. They depend on worm gears for one-way motion. It uses the
pressure angle of the worm gears to transfer torque to the overspeeding
axle just as its torque is lightened compared to the other axle. The
more lightly loaded axle doesn't have to actually overspeed for the
torque to be transferred, it transfers instantly as the torque lightens.
I compare it to a doorstop. A relatively light force on the doorstop
can hold a much larger force from the door by using the friction on the
wedge surfaces.
VISCOUS: This uses the velocity/shear effect of some silicone fluids.
Motion is highly damped until a sharp point, when the fluid begins to
resist flow so much it basically locks up.Viscous differentials are very
common as center diffs in OEM 4wd applications. They have been used in
some OEM FWD applications. They work well as a street RWD application .
Theoretically, the viscous diff is almost perfect - it is an open
differential until it sees a small amount of speed difference between
the axles, then it softly locks up. Unfortunately, I've found reports -
"net lore", unfortunately - that the viscous diffs lose effectiveness
when they get hot, essentially turning into open diffs until they cool
back down. For street, drags, and autocross, and even for mild track
work, this probably wouldn't be a problem. Depending on how tight the
track was and how hard the driver pushed the car, it might not be a
problem on a long track. However, viscous diffs in the aftermarket seem
to be *very* limited in
applications, and I haven't seen one for the 7.5" GM. I'd be very
interested if I could find one that would fit my application.
GEAROTOR: This has clutches applied by hydraulic pressure generated by a
gerotor pump between the two axles. The pump volume, clutches and
pressure bleeds can be tuned to provide a wide variety of lockup
strategies.
SPOOL: This just connects the left and right wheels together and to
hell with it. The locked rear imparts initial understeer, and can cause
oversteer later in the turn. Tight turns will bind the suspension until
a tire slips. The spool is the lightest, strongest, and most
predictable rear end (not a differential, since there isn't one), and
absolutely transfers all the power 50/50 to both wheels. But it can be
very hard to live with.
DETROIT LOCKER: This is a jaw and ramp system, originally designed for
trucks. It's a spool with a breakaway torque, functioning similarly to
a plate clutch. The noise and vibration of the jaw clutches
aredisconcerting to many drivers, and some claim the sudden unlocking
upsets the car. On the other hand, the Locker doesn't depend on friction
components, just springs and ramps, so it won't generate heat or wear
rapidly like the friction types.
AIR LOCKER: These are made in Australia. They have an enormous product
range, from Suzuki Samurais to OTR trucks. The Air Locker is a pneumatic
jaw clutch on the carrier; it simply locks the two axles together when
commanded. So it's an open differential by default, and a spool when
you want it to be. The actuation time is very fast. It would be simple
enough to fangle a Stamp type controller to lock and unlock it
automatically at the track, or wire it alongside a traction control
device.
ZAHNRAD FABRIQUE (ZF): Came to prominence in Germany in the 30's. It
used outer and inner cam tracks bearing on sliding blocks in an driven
intermediate carrier. The tighter the fit in the carrier the less slip
between wheels. All of those formula cars that had swastikas on the
outside had Z-Fs inside! Popular (or perhaps the only game in town)
through the mid 50's!
UNKNOWN: a lot of what I've found refers to diffs by brand or product
names, and the web sites for the vendors often don't bother to tell you
what the hell it is they're selling. Paul Van Valkenburgh and Carroll
Smith refer to a bunch of stuff I can't find anywhere; I suspect they're
talking about specialty Formula 1 stuff you'd order with your Weisemann
or Hewland transaxle.
----------------------
An annoying problem is that many of these differentials are service
items - they don't last forever, and servicing them is a hassle and can
be expensive.
PLATE, PLATE AND RAMP, PHANTOM GRIP: all have wear surfaces, and can
last a year or less if raced often.
SPOOL, DETROIT LOCKER, AIR LOCKER, VISCOUS: wear is not an issue with
these.
TORSEN: are generally non wearing beyond normal worm and wheel gear
behavior."
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 40
From: Greensboro, NC
Trending Topics
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
This just arrived on another list to answer a question about aftermarket LSDs
"
For differentials, we have:
OPEN: works well in most situations, until one wheel loses traction, at
which point all power goes to the loose wheel. Has least effect on
handling in turns. Cheapest. No wear components or additional
maintenance. When power is low and the track is open enough, an open
differential can work fine.
PHANTOM GRIP: This is a widget that goes in your open diff. It's
basically a giant spring that forces the spider gears apart. It's a
highly loaded friction device, incapable of transferring much torque
even when new.
PLATE: this is a differential with a multiple disc clutch inside the
carrier. The spring-loaded clutch "breaks away" at 50-75 pounds of
torque for most American passenger cars, 100-125 for Corvettes. This is
the most common type of differential. Torque to the non-spinning wheel
is limited to whatever the breakaway torque is, which is better than
nothing, of course. Even without ramps, the plate type increases
friction with torque through the differental. Replacement springs are
available to adjust the breakaway torque. A plate clutch is a spool
until breakaway torque is reached, so turn-in is affected.
PLATE AND RAMP: This is a plate clutch with ramps machined into the
carrier, that increase clamping load when there's a torque differential
across the axles. As I understand it, they can have a lower breakaway
torque on the plates, so the diff acts more like an open type in normal
driving, then tightens up as a tire starts to spin.
TORSEN: There are several variants of these, not all working exactly
the same. They depend on worm gears for one-way motion. It uses the
pressure angle of the worm gears to transfer torque to the overspeeding
axle just as its torque is lightened compared to the other axle. The
more lightly loaded axle doesn't have to actually overspeed for the
torque to be transferred, it transfers instantly as the torque lightens.
I compare it to a doorstop. A relatively light force on the doorstop
can hold a much larger force from the door by using the friction on the
wedge surfaces.
VISCOUS: This uses the velocity/shear effect of some silicone fluids.
Motion is highly damped until a sharp point, when the fluid begins to
resist flow so much it basically locks up.Viscous differentials are very
common as center diffs in OEM 4wd applications. They have been used in
some OEM FWD applications. They work well as a street RWD application .
Theoretically, the viscous diff is almost perfect - it is an open
differential until it sees a small amount of speed difference between
the axles, then it softly locks up. Unfortunately, I've found reports -
"net lore", unfortunately - that the viscous diffs lose effectiveness
when they get hot, essentially turning into open diffs until they cool
back down. For street, drags, and autocross, and even for mild track
work, this probably wouldn't be a problem. Depending on how tight the
track was and how hard the driver pushed the car, it might not be a
problem on a long track. However, viscous diffs in the aftermarket seem
to be *very* limited in
applications, and I haven't seen one for the 7.5" GM. I'd be very
interested if I could find one that would fit my application.
GEAROTOR: This has clutches applied by hydraulic pressure generated by a
gerotor pump between the two axles. The pump volume, clutches and
pressure bleeds can be tuned to provide a wide variety of lockup
strategies.
SPOOL: This just connects the left and right wheels together and to
hell with it. The locked rear imparts initial understeer, and can cause
oversteer later in the turn. Tight turns will bind the suspension until
a tire slips. The spool is the lightest, strongest, and most
predictable rear end (not a differential, since there isn't one), and
absolutely transfers all the power 50/50 to both wheels. But it can be
very hard to live with.
DETROIT LOCKER: This is a jaw and ramp system, originally designed for
trucks. It's a spool with a breakaway torque, functioning similarly to
a plate clutch. The noise and vibration of the jaw clutches
aredisconcerting to many drivers, and some claim the sudden unlocking
upsets the car. On the other hand, the Locker doesn't depend on friction
components, just springs and ramps, so it won't generate heat or wear
rapidly like the friction types.
AIR LOCKER: These are made in Australia. They have an enormous product
range, from Suzuki Samurais to OTR trucks. The Air Locker is a pneumatic
jaw clutch on the carrier; it simply locks the two axles together when
commanded. So it's an open differential by default, and a spool when
you want it to be. The actuation time is very fast. It would be simple
enough to fangle a Stamp type controller to lock and unlock it
automatically at the track, or wire it alongside a traction control
device.
ZAHNRAD FABRIQUE (ZF): Came to prominence in Germany in the 30's. It
used outer and inner cam tracks bearing on sliding blocks in an driven
intermediate carrier. The tighter the fit in the carrier the less slip
between wheels. All of those formula cars that had swastikas on the
outside had Z-Fs inside! Popular (or perhaps the only game in town)
through the mid 50's!
UNKNOWN: a lot of what I've found refers to diffs by brand or product
names, and the web sites for the vendors often don't bother to tell you
what the hell it is they're selling. Paul Van Valkenburgh and Carroll
Smith refer to a bunch of stuff I can't find anywhere; I suspect they're
talking about specialty Formula 1 stuff you'd order with your Weisemann
or Hewland transaxle.
----------------------
An annoying problem is that many of these differentials are service
items - they don't last forever, and servicing them is a hassle and can
be expensive.
PLATE, PLATE AND RAMP, PHANTOM GRIP: all have wear surfaces, and can
last a year or less if raced often.
SPOOL, DETROIT LOCKER, AIR LOCKER, VISCOUS: wear is not an issue with
these.
TORSEN: are generally non wearing beyond normal worm and wheel gear
behavior."
"
For differentials, we have:
OPEN: works well in most situations, until one wheel loses traction, at
which point all power goes to the loose wheel. Has least effect on
handling in turns. Cheapest. No wear components or additional
maintenance. When power is low and the track is open enough, an open
differential can work fine.
PHANTOM GRIP: This is a widget that goes in your open diff. It's
basically a giant spring that forces the spider gears apart. It's a
highly loaded friction device, incapable of transferring much torque
even when new.
PLATE: this is a differential with a multiple disc clutch inside the
carrier. The spring-loaded clutch "breaks away" at 50-75 pounds of
torque for most American passenger cars, 100-125 for Corvettes. This is
the most common type of differential. Torque to the non-spinning wheel
is limited to whatever the breakaway torque is, which is better than
nothing, of course. Even without ramps, the plate type increases
friction with torque through the differental. Replacement springs are
available to adjust the breakaway torque. A plate clutch is a spool
until breakaway torque is reached, so turn-in is affected.
PLATE AND RAMP: This is a plate clutch with ramps machined into the
carrier, that increase clamping load when there's a torque differential
across the axles. As I understand it, they can have a lower breakaway
torque on the plates, so the diff acts more like an open type in normal
driving, then tightens up as a tire starts to spin.
TORSEN: There are several variants of these, not all working exactly
the same. They depend on worm gears for one-way motion. It uses the
pressure angle of the worm gears to transfer torque to the overspeeding
axle just as its torque is lightened compared to the other axle. The
more lightly loaded axle doesn't have to actually overspeed for the
torque to be transferred, it transfers instantly as the torque lightens.
I compare it to a doorstop. A relatively light force on the doorstop
can hold a much larger force from the door by using the friction on the
wedge surfaces.
VISCOUS: This uses the velocity/shear effect of some silicone fluids.
Motion is highly damped until a sharp point, when the fluid begins to
resist flow so much it basically locks up.Viscous differentials are very
common as center diffs in OEM 4wd applications. They have been used in
some OEM FWD applications. They work well as a street RWD application .
Theoretically, the viscous diff is almost perfect - it is an open
differential until it sees a small amount of speed difference between
the axles, then it softly locks up. Unfortunately, I've found reports -
"net lore", unfortunately - that the viscous diffs lose effectiveness
when they get hot, essentially turning into open diffs until they cool
back down. For street, drags, and autocross, and even for mild track
work, this probably wouldn't be a problem. Depending on how tight the
track was and how hard the driver pushed the car, it might not be a
problem on a long track. However, viscous diffs in the aftermarket seem
to be *very* limited in
applications, and I haven't seen one for the 7.5" GM. I'd be very
interested if I could find one that would fit my application.
GEAROTOR: This has clutches applied by hydraulic pressure generated by a
gerotor pump between the two axles. The pump volume, clutches and
pressure bleeds can be tuned to provide a wide variety of lockup
strategies.
SPOOL: This just connects the left and right wheels together and to
hell with it. The locked rear imparts initial understeer, and can cause
oversteer later in the turn. Tight turns will bind the suspension until
a tire slips. The spool is the lightest, strongest, and most
predictable rear end (not a differential, since there isn't one), and
absolutely transfers all the power 50/50 to both wheels. But it can be
very hard to live with.
DETROIT LOCKER: This is a jaw and ramp system, originally designed for
trucks. It's a spool with a breakaway torque, functioning similarly to
a plate clutch. The noise and vibration of the jaw clutches
aredisconcerting to many drivers, and some claim the sudden unlocking
upsets the car. On the other hand, the Locker doesn't depend on friction
components, just springs and ramps, so it won't generate heat or wear
rapidly like the friction types.
AIR LOCKER: These are made in Australia. They have an enormous product
range, from Suzuki Samurais to OTR trucks. The Air Locker is a pneumatic
jaw clutch on the carrier; it simply locks the two axles together when
commanded. So it's an open differential by default, and a spool when
you want it to be. The actuation time is very fast. It would be simple
enough to fangle a Stamp type controller to lock and unlock it
automatically at the track, or wire it alongside a traction control
device.
ZAHNRAD FABRIQUE (ZF): Came to prominence in Germany in the 30's. It
used outer and inner cam tracks bearing on sliding blocks in an driven
intermediate carrier. The tighter the fit in the carrier the less slip
between wheels. All of those formula cars that had swastikas on the
outside had Z-Fs inside! Popular (or perhaps the only game in town)
through the mid 50's!
UNKNOWN: a lot of what I've found refers to diffs by brand or product
names, and the web sites for the vendors often don't bother to tell you
what the hell it is they're selling. Paul Van Valkenburgh and Carroll
Smith refer to a bunch of stuff I can't find anywhere; I suspect they're
talking about specialty Formula 1 stuff you'd order with your Weisemann
or Hewland transaxle.
----------------------
An annoying problem is that many of these differentials are service
items - they don't last forever, and servicing them is a hassle and can
be expensive.
PLATE, PLATE AND RAMP, PHANTOM GRIP: all have wear surfaces, and can
last a year or less if raced often.
SPOOL, DETROIT LOCKER, AIR LOCKER, VISCOUS: wear is not an issue with
these.
TORSEN: are generally non wearing beyond normal worm and wheel gear
behavior."
which is the Quaiffe?
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 772
Likes: 0
Quaife is a Torsen with an additional clutch that provides a preload/breakaway torque. This means the Quaife can apply torque even when one wheel is in the air while a Torsen cannot (the manual of the Torsen-equipped Hummer H1 suggests using the parking brake if one wheel is in the air for this reason).
Once the clutch wears away, the Quaife functions as a standard Torsen.
The MINI unit appears to be an Auburn type. Those use cone-shaped friction clutches and function like the standard plate clutch type but are reputed to be more progressive and are not rebuildable.
The Phantom Grip is a plate type LSD only missing the friction clutch plates. The spider gears rub directly against the carrier and Phantom Grip block and this limited surface area makes it behave just like a worn-out plate clutch diff.
Once the clutch wears away, the Quaife functions as a standard Torsen.
The MINI unit appears to be an Auburn type. Those use cone-shaped friction clutches and function like the standard plate clutch type but are reputed to be more progressive and are not rebuildable.
The Phantom Grip is a plate type LSD only missing the friction clutch plates. The spider gears rub directly against the carrier and Phantom Grip block and this limited surface area makes it behave just like a worn-out plate clutch diff.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 0
From: Tucson, AZ
To revive an older thread, I was discussing LSD's with a VW buddy of mine. His Quaife, when on the lift rotates both wheels in one direction when you spin them. i.e turn the driver's side wheel in a forward direction and the passenger does the same.
Now my '05, supposedly with the OEM LSD spins the wheels opposite directions? He said I don't have an LSD and just an open dif' as they should spin the same direction.
Anyone confirm or deny that the LSd type in our cars spins the wheels opposite wiht manual rotation on a lift? I paid for the darn thing. I sure hope I got what I paid for??
Now my '05, supposedly with the OEM LSD spins the wheels opposite directions? He said I don't have an LSD and just an open dif' as they should spin the same direction.
Anyone confirm or deny that the LSd type in our cars spins the wheels opposite wiht manual rotation on a lift? I paid for the darn thing. I sure hope I got what I paid for??
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 772
Likes: 0
From: Denver, CO
To revive an older thread, I was discussing LSD's with a VW buddy of mine. His Quaife, when on the lift rotates both wheels in one direction when you spin them. i.e turn the driver's side wheel in a forward direction and the passenger does the same.
Now my '05, supposedly with the OEM LSD spins the wheels opposite directions? He said I don't have an LSD and just an open dif' as they should spin the same direction.
Anyone confirm or deny that the LSd type in our cars spins the wheels opposite wiht manual rotation on a lift? I paid for the darn thing. I sure hope I got what I paid for??
Now my '05, supposedly with the OEM LSD spins the wheels opposite directions? He said I don't have an LSD and just an open dif' as they should spin the same direction.
Anyone confirm or deny that the LSd type in our cars spins the wheels opposite wiht manual rotation on a lift? I paid for the darn thing. I sure hope I got what I paid for??
-Brian
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