Drivetrain DFIC numbers
My little dose of LITHIUM
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From: Albuquerque New Mexico
Thanks Randy. I figured out the bungs, I was just trying to take the quick route to buying the thermal probes that fit the NPT bungs. Any recommendations would be most appreciated. I think Sid (MSFITOY) is using the MM digital thermometer but I don't know what probes he's using.
I'll keep looking,
I'll keep looking,
My little dose of LITHIUM
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From: Albuquerque New Mexico
Is the MiniMadness Intercooler Temperature Gauge the same one you refer to as a "SPA" Tony?
I found some 1/8 NPT bungs that are predrilled for temperature probes, and I found some inexpensive probes (I posted the link elsewhere and can't find it now, but will look again.) Problem with this solution is each probe comes with its own meter and digital readout so there's more gauges to mount on the dash. The single meter is a great idea but $300 (plus probes) is too rich for me.
cheers,
I found some 1/8 NPT bungs that are predrilled for temperature probes, and I found some inexpensive probes (I posted the link elsewhere and can't find it now, but will look again.) Problem with this solution is each probe comes with its own meter and digital readout so there's more gauges to mount on the dash. The single meter is a great idea but $300 (plus probes) is too rich for me.
cheers,
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
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Originally Posted by gandini
Is the MiniMadness Intercooler Temperature Gauge the same one you refer to as a "SPA" Tony?
I found some 1/8 NPT bungs that are predrilled for temperature probes, and I found some inexpensive probes (I posted the link elsewhere and can't find it now, but will look again.) Problem with this solution is each probe comes with its own meter and digital readout so there's more gauges to mount on the dash. The single meter is a great idea but $300 (plus probes) is too rich for me.
cheers,
I found some 1/8 NPT bungs that are predrilled for temperature probes, and I found some inexpensive probes (I posted the link elsewhere and can't find it now, but will look again.) Problem with this solution is each probe comes with its own meter and digital readout so there's more gauges to mount on the dash. The single meter is a great idea but $300 (plus probes) is too rich for me.
cheers,
Originally Posted by TonyB
Besides SPA, who makes a dual digital gauge? It would be nice to have one gauge that show both temps (pre & post IC)...
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
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From: Greensboro, NC
Originally Posted by maxmini
cheers,
PS--does anyone know of a thermocouple or probe that will fit in the bungs on the DFIC? thanks, I want to start taking measurements.
As mentioned one the web site for you number's guys
Included on the intercooler are two 1/8th inch NPT threaded bungs which will allow thermal couple placement for pressure testing instruments or boost gauges pre-core and post-core.
Randy
M7 Tuning
PS--does anyone know of a thermocouple or probe that will fit in the bungs on the DFIC? thanks, I want to start taking measurements.
As mentioned one the web site for you number's guys
Included on the intercooler are two 1/8th inch NPT threaded bungs which will allow thermal couple placement for pressure testing instruments or boost gauges pre-core and post-core.
Randy
M7 Tuning
Originally Posted by gandini
Thanks Randy. I figured out the bungs, I was just trying to take the quick route to buying the thermal probes that fit the NPT bungs. Any recommendations would be most appreciated. I think Sid (MSFITOY) is using the MM digital thermometer but I don't know what probes he's using.
I'll keep looking,
__________________
dr. phil
I'll keep looking,
__________________
dr. phil
) up into the DFIC at the center line pre and post core from beneith and then sealed with silicone...sorry, but I don't have images of the probes...
6th Gear
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
I've seen that In/Out/Diff on the Subaru and a few other forums, and Madness offers it. I'd like to see not just one temp at a time though...
Here's a link to the SPA duals:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produc...n/dual_gauges/
In group B, the temp/temp one would seem to be appropriate...
Not cheap, but has some pretty slick options.
Here's a link to the SPA duals:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produc...n/dual_gauges/
In group B, the temp/temp one would seem to be appropriate...
Not cheap, but has some pretty slick options.
None of these are what you want...
Close, but not quite..
But for those of you who really want to log this stuff well, there are some things to look out for....
The cheaper probe/thermometors are slow. Both in update speed and thermal response. Think of this as a massive low pass filter on the data stream. Sad thing is to make some fast response stuff isn't that cheap. For example, the Tc that PLX sells for the EGT probes is over $80, it's a faster probe than others (But it is threadded for metric threads, sorry). The $250 price point for the dual temp IC monitor isn't really that bad a price, if you look at what it takes to put it all together.
Matt
But for those of you who really want to log this stuff well, there are some things to look out for....
The cheaper probe/thermometors are slow. Both in update speed and thermal response. Think of this as a massive low pass filter on the data stream. Sad thing is to make some fast response stuff isn't that cheap. For example, the Tc that PLX sells for the EGT probes is over $80, it's a faster probe than others (But it is threadded for metric threads, sorry). The $250 price point for the dual temp IC monitor isn't really that bad a price, if you look at what it takes to put it all together.
Matt
My little dose of LITHIUM
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From: Albuquerque New Mexico
This is great news! I hope it's a reasonable price. I found a Pace Scientific logger and 2 probes with NPT fittings, but...
http://www.pace-sci.com/data-logger-xr440.htm
It's $499 and $38 or so for each probe and then $20 for the data cable. Mmm, I think that represents too little a return for my investment since I can feel the effect of the DFIC and associated placebo without any instruments.
I'll wait until m7 offers the gauge. I hope someone attending Monterey will report on what they see and hear regarding the gauge? (please...)
http://www.pace-sci.com/data-logger-xr440.htm
It's $499 and $38 or so for each probe and then $20 for the data cable. Mmm, I think that represents too little a return for my investment since I can feel the effect of the DFIC and associated placebo without any instruments.
I'll wait until m7 offers the gauge. I hope someone attending Monterey will report on what they see and hear regarding the gauge? (please...)
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Richmond, VA
Originally Posted by obehave
Undoubtedly the thinner but we are not talking about 2 objects of the same mass. If you thinned out a 2 lb block to .050" and a 1.75 block to .050" which will reach ambient sooner? Thats what we're talking about.
) Why?
Originally Posted by obehave
I think stevecars60 mass to surface area ratio comment makes the most sense.
Taking that into consideration there might not be as great a time differential as I first thought but there still would be one.
If the mass goes up 20% but the surface area only goes up 15% then there is a loss. Made up figures but they demonstrate my intention.
Bear in mind that a large portion of the mass increase will be in the end tanks,including the tube ends, which assist very little in cooling the charge or the entire unit for that matter.
Back to my comfy chair
Taking that into consideration there might not be as great a time differential as I first thought but there still would be one.
If the mass goes up 20% but the surface area only goes up 15% then there is a loss. Made up figures but they demonstrate my intention.
Bear in mind that a large portion of the mass increase will be in the end tanks,including the tube ends, which assist very little in cooling the charge or the entire unit for that matter.
Back to my comfy chair
Of course, we're still assuming ideal flow rates. With the GRS being a larger intercooler, you need to increase the size of the scoop to provide more air, or the cooling efficiency will ultimately suffer because you'd only be feeding it enough air for the stock IC. Even then, the stock scoop is probably not gulping enough air even for the stock IC.
Ok, so now that we're all on the same page...
6th Gear
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From: Northampton MA
Originally Posted by obehave
Undoubtedly the thinner but we are not talking about 2 objects of the same mass. If you thinned out a 2 lb block to .050" and a 1.75 block to .050" which will reach ambient sooner? Thats what we're talking about.
Note: From memory the aftermarket unit are 10-20% larger. My GRS for instance has a ~ 13% larger area on the top surface over stock. Measuring fin area only. ~18.4% greater cu/i
Stock = 10.875 x 6.375 x 1.875 102.5 sq/in and 205.3 ci/in
GRS= 11.250 x 9.125 x 2 89.33 sq/in and 167.5 cu/in
I think stevecars60 mass to surface area ratio comment makes the most sense.
Taking that into consideration there might not be as great a time differential as I first thought but there still would be one.
If the mass goes up 20% but the surface area only goes up 15% then there is a loss. Made up figures but they demonstrate my intention.
Bear in mind that a large portion of the mass increase will be in the end tanks,including the tube ends, which assist very little in cooling the charge or the entire unit for that matter.
Back to my comfy chair
Note: From memory the aftermarket unit are 10-20% larger. My GRS for instance has a ~ 13% larger area on the top surface over stock. Measuring fin area only. ~18.4% greater cu/i
Stock = 10.875 x 6.375 x 1.875 102.5 sq/in and 205.3 ci/in
GRS= 11.250 x 9.125 x 2 89.33 sq/in and 167.5 cu/in
I think stevecars60 mass to surface area ratio comment makes the most sense.
Taking that into consideration there might not be as great a time differential as I first thought but there still would be one.
If the mass goes up 20% but the surface area only goes up 15% then there is a loss. Made up figures but they demonstrate my intention.
Bear in mind that a large portion of the mass increase will be in the end tanks,including the tube ends, which assist very little in cooling the charge or the entire unit for that matter.
Back to my comfy chair
Take a look at the tubes in your GRS & compare with the stock unit. Are they the same ( IE - do they have any internal fins )?
Maybe M7, Gandini or TonyB can tell us what the tubes look like on the inside of the DFIC. Forge's new IC has extruded tubes with fins on the inside.
6th Gear
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by stevecars60
Obe, time to get out of your chair.
Take a look at the tubes in your GRS & compare with the stock unit. Are they the same ( IE - do they have any internal fins )?
Maybe M7, Gandini or TonyB can tell us what the tubes look like on the inside of the DFIC. Forge's new IC has extruded tubes with fins on the inside.
Take a look at the tubes in your GRS & compare with the stock unit. Are they the same ( IE - do they have any internal fins )?
Maybe M7, Gandini or TonyB can tell us what the tubes look like on the inside of the DFIC. Forge's new IC has extruded tubes with fins on the inside.
Remember I used to build and run QA on radiators and heater cores for a living.
Once again all I am talking about is that a larger mass will take longer to cool. Period. You guys keep adding extra stuff. Most of it not germane to that simple fact.
6th Gear
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From: Northampton MA
Originally Posted by obehave
I've inspected the IC quite thoroughly thank you.
Remember I used to build and run QA on radiators and heater cores for a living.
Once again all I am talking about is that a larger mass will take longer to cool. Period. You guys keep adding extra stuff. Most of it not germane to that simple fact.
Remember I used to build and run QA on radiators and heater cores for a living.
Once again all I am talking about is that a larger mass will take longer to cool. Period. You guys keep adding extra stuff. Most of it not germane to that simple fact.
What I'm wondering is, the stock unit has a typical honey comb of aluminum & since I don't have a DFIC or a GSR to compare, what the make up of the tubes in GSR & DFIC.
My little dose of LITHIUM
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From: Albuquerque New Mexico
The fins between the core plates on the DFIC look the same as those on the stock IC, from a -non-radiator- guy. I said in a previous post that the internal fins looked more dense than the external ones, but after looking again last night (I'll have many nights to look at them as I'm away from home and can't install the thing for a week -- darn it) they appear very similar. The density just looks greater looking down the long axis of the IC rather than across the short axis (duh, phil.)
cheers,
cheers,
6th Gear
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From: Northampton MA
Originally Posted by gandini
The fins between the core plates on the DFIC look the same as those on the stock IC, from a -non-radiator- guy. I said in a previous post that the internal fins looked more dense than the external ones, but after looking again last night (I'll have many nights to look at them as I'm away from home and can't install the thing for a week -- darn it) they appear very similar. The density just looks greater looking down the long axis of the IC rather than across the short axis (duh, phil.)
cheers,
cheers,
6th Gear
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by stevecars60
Made a ton of radiators myself. Hey, just thought I'de throw something different at you. I'm not going to mass v surface anymore. Done. Just something different to think about ( like there is more to think about ).
What I'm wondering is, the stock unit has a typical honey comb of aluminum & since I don't have a DFIC or a GSR to compare, what the make up of the tubes in GSR & DFIC.
What I'm wondering is, the stock unit has a typical honey comb of aluminum & since I don't have a DFIC or a GSR to compare, what the make up of the tubes in GSR & DFIC.
6th Gear
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From: Northampton MA
Thanks, Obe, I should have taken a pic of the Forge before I put it on the car. The Forge is a different animal. It's interior design is nothing like I've seen ( not at all like the stock or the DFIC ), however, it is still a vertical flow IC.
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
....Strip all the other stuff off, and these things (DFIC and Alta flow through design) work because the improve the flow of the cooling air...
Matt
Matt
the cooling does NOT just dpend on the airflow available, it also depends on the actual shape of the ic. this has been mentioned many times before: there is a good reason that almost every radiator is much thinner in the direction parallel to the cooling flow than than it is normal to the flow; the air picks up heat as it passes through the device, thus reducing its ability to cool.
the thicker alta/m7 design is trading off less cooling efficiency through the thickness for a hypothesized better flow through. but until you run the numbers comparing the stock style flow path to the alta.m7 path, making claims about "better" or "best" is just yet more unsubstantiated marketing hype, not engineering and not science.
From testing...
But you are correct. The Alta flow through works better due to lower pressure losses. That was the first prototype and I don't know what Jeff did to the design after that. GRS made power with lower back pressure, not lower temps.
There are flow models that Will did that are posted.
But another answer is common sense. If the same amount of air flowed through the flow through ICs, the cooling air would heat as it went through the core, not really cooling the air at the back of the IC. Initial data says the air coming through the IC is cool, ergo there is enough flow to cool it.
Matt
More....
This just isn't true. TonyB has posted IAT numbers that show the DFIC lower than his modded/extreme scooped GRS, and the temps are down. I don't need a flow model or FEA to tell me what's going on. Thermal efficiencies are up. But you also say modeling is the only way to get the answer. I don't agree, you can also experimentally verify the function.
There are flow models that Will did that are posted.
But another answer is common sense. If the same amount of air flowed through the flow through ICs, the cooling air would heat as it went through the core, not really cooling the air at the back of the IC. Initial data says the air coming through the IC is cool, ergo there is enough flow to cool it.
Matt
More....
but until you run the numbers comparing the stock style flow path to the alta.m7 path, making claims about "better" or "best" is just yet more unsubstantiated marketing hype, not engineering and not science.
6th Gear
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by stevecars60
Made a ton of radiators myself. Hey, just thought I'de throw something different at you. I'm not going to mass v surface anymore. Done. Just something different to think about ( like there is more to think about ).
What I'm wondering is, the stock unit has a typical honey comb of aluminum & since I don't have a DFIC or a GSR to compare, what the make up of the tubes in GSR & DFIC.
What I'm wondering is, the stock unit has a typical honey comb of aluminum & since I don't have a DFIC or a GSR to compare, what the make up of the tubes in GSR & DFIC.
GRS and stock tube shots. Stock is a bit fuzzy though.
I tried to do a shot of which passed the most light(GRS) but turned out not so good so take my word for it the GRS passes more light down each tube.
Left is the GRS, right is stock
6th Gear
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From: Northampton MA
Originally Posted by obehave
As promised
GRS and stock tube shots. Stock is a bit fuzzy though.
I tried to do a shot of which passed the most light(GRS) but turned out not so good so take my word for it the GRS passes more light down each tube.
Left is the GRS, right is stock
GRS and stock tube shots. Stock is a bit fuzzy though.
I tried to do a shot of which passed the most light(GRS) but turned out not so good so take my word for it the GRS passes more light down each tube.
Left is the GRS, right is stock
