I apologize, I realize I wasn't clear. I do that a lot.

What I mean to say is that on a stock car, with stock intake tubes, etc. The throttle body will make a couple of HP increase. Changing any other part, upper intake tube or going to the AGS (best solution) will have an additive effect. But there's a limit.

However, if you add a pulley, you increase the demand for air into the supercharger at a given RPM. The stock system is pretty decent for a stock SC's demands, but once the pulley is added you need to get more air in. The most efficient way to do this is with an M7 AGS and M7 TB. Both components were designed for maximum flow efficiency.

What I meant by more mods is that you will see a greater power increase from an intake/TB upgrade for other mods. Say that the intake/TB and a stock SC pulley give you an 10 HP gain. Say with the stock intake your 16% pulley gives you 15 HP. However, if you have all three mods, you would expect to gain 25 HP, but in reality you will probably gain 30 HP because of the combination. These numbers were just pulled out of thin air, BTW, but the example hopefully shows what I'm saying.

Does that help clarify?

 

You might be right for a Cooper, but not for the MCS. In this case with the SC, intercooler, and various bends in the way turbulence upstream of the supercharger would not affect atomization.

 

As Will is saying, given all of the turbulence-creating pieces downstream of the TB, you won't get some massive change in net turbulence. In fact, you'd probably get no change. The idea of turbulence and atomization in our cars is most closely related to the intake port geometry and the intake manifold configuration. The air takes at least 7 90 degree turns from AGS filter to combustion chamber, more with a normal intake. Count 'em:

1) into the filter/throttle body
2) out of the S/c
3) toward the IC core
4) down the post-IC runner
5) toward the intake manifold
6) toward the head intake ports
7) down into the cylinder head

There are plenty of places for the air to get mixed up along the way. Plus, it won't really meet up with any fuel until it's entering the head/combustion chamber. That's where the mixing benefits.

 

I keep reading and reading this thread, hoping to see some real data. I have learned the conjecture from the experts, but now let's see some test results.

 

I hope you realize that these car are not direct injection engines... and that the fuel is injected in the intake manifold... typically the more you can stir the air the more the fuel will atomize allowing for better combustion and more power. On older hot rod trick is to actually aim the fuel injectors UP the intake manifold that way the fuel has to come back and mixes better... WE ARE NOT TAKING ABOUT FUEL MIXTURE AS IN A/F!!!!!!!!!!!

And thank you for proving my point without having to say a word at all! All of the velocity stacks on this throttle boddy and the smoothend shaft are really of no use since their are the 90 degree bends that you are speaking about! Pretty much the most important thing on this portion of the engine is getting the volume of air UP. Which i find hard to believe any sort of gain on a throttle body that is only 1-2mm larger than stock... regardless of velocity stacks... regardless of throttle shaft design...

 

I don't think that is a problem since the supercharger will create plenty of turbulence.

 

Did I read this right?
Wow!! Dual velocity stacks. Really?
May I see a picture of that?

 

don't think you're thinking about the same thing - its not two TRUMPET velocity stacks, velocity stacks can be any location that is narrower at a section than it is at a previous section.... take the original throttle body and taper the edges of it outward so it opens up the further it goes away from the center of the throttle body.... i'm sure they'll post a pic for ya

 

but for the stock, 60mm and 62mm on a car with a pully, HAI, header, JCW injectors and one ball. I saw no difference. But I haven't opened up the head, or installed the modified AGS tube yet...

From where I sit, the larger TB is something to add very late in the mod cycle.

Matt

 

just went to m7's website...



http://m7tuning.com/main.m7/store/10005

 

Go to the website, and read the research. We've achieved almost a 20% increase in flow area, depending on the size you choose. I wouldn't call this insignificant by any means.

 

It's still a single stacked column of air. Just because there happens to be a plate in the middle does not make it 2 columns of air. They cannot and do not function as serperate entities.
Dual velocity stacks indicate 2 seperate and distinct air columns.

I have a basic grasp of venturi design and the bernoulli principle

 

seems to me the M7 TB is larger at the in and out than stock, but what is the opening size at the b/fly? Assuming this is the more restrictive area, velocity here would be higher right where the volume control is happening, via the b/fly. So how would the throttle response be affected?

 

There's a 60mm (inner throat diameter) and a 62mm, they both taper to the 63mm opening, I think, but as they aren't all on my bench anymore, I can't measure for sure.

Matt

 

I hope you know that the injectors are after the supercharger and before the cylinder head...

 

So is the TB. Your the one that brought this up in thinking that some turbulence might be a good thing. If you felt that the TB should supply that then I think others were pointing out that there is plenty of turbulence prior to the injectors.

 

true i completely agree! I think we got off on the wrong tangent... i was refering to the injectors being pointed up stream to help atomize fuel... I can totally see the confusion for that comment though... however that statement would be true if we were talking about the cooper...

anyways... sorry for the confusion... i post here at work and sometimes get busy... sometimes it takes me 4 hours to make one small post because i get interupted! HOW DARE I GET INTERUPTED AT WORK TO ACTUALLY DO WORK!

 

I'm confused by your comment. Are you suggesting that that TB is after the SC? Thanks...

 

now that i re-read his statement... you are right... that doesn't make any sense... the TB is before the supercharger... but i think i got what he meant... at least i hope that was a mistake on his part

 

Yep. it was a misinterpretation on my part. I think it was all the circles this thread was going aroiund in that made me a bit dizzy

 

First your videos & now this comment solidifies it - you can't run on ovals! J/K From watching the way you drive I think you could run em in your sleep! Probably be about as exciting (as sleep) too.

 

anyone know where i can find a 60mm M7 throttle body?