Hi all, I was looking for information on Hobbs pressure switches, and I came across this web site. don't hold it against the author that he's into Merkurs, but it's got good info on the stuff you need for water injections/IC sprayers...

LINK

Matt

 

Thanks for the info. I think water/alcohol injection is just what our Mini's need. I heard M7 was working on a system.

 

Matt and all,

I have been using components for my water injection system from this vendor: http://www.coolingmist.com/categorie...n=set&res=1024

Have been pleased with his customer service and the quality of his products. Did some dyno checks this Winter, "A" vs "B" comparisons, of water injection pre and post intercooler. Found a 10 HP peak gain from a heat soaked engine with the water injection pre-intercooler and 0 HP gain with water injection post-intercooler. Attached should be a photo. Hope I don't goof up the attachment process/

Just the ticket for those hot Summer track days.

Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

Another try on the photo. The last one was too large. Can I ever get it correct?

John Petrich in Seattle

 

Petrich, What size or flow capacity nozzle were you using?
Thanks much.

 

I assume you guys are spraying into the intake charge, correct? My friends Grand National had the water injector on the up pipe going to the throttle body. Worked wonders as hi bone stock GN (just upped boost to 22 psi from the 15 psi stock) ran a 12.8 @ 105. After a few other little tweaks, he was running 12.3 @ 109. The water injection kit was basically just a small fuel pump with a boost controlled activation switch. it would come on at 15 psi and run until it was below 15 psi. He used denatured alcohol/ water in it with a 50:50 mix. I think he spent about $200 on a kit.

 

I am responding to this thread purely because i love WI. WI works, period. Aside from a car that runs C16 fuel, every turbo can can benifit from this. The best way for people to get into the world of WI and better understand why to use it is to go to the leader in the field. Aquamist. Aquamist is the company that all the DIY WI companies got the idea from. When the DIY guys offer 2 nozzles to deliver different amounts of water, Aquamist has an injector and a controller that delivers the 10-15% water mixture through out the whole RPM band. The normal kits will use a given size nozzle that delivers a set amount of water. The problem with this is that at lower RPM it is too much and at higher it may not be enough. Aqumist's system i am refering to is the 2D.

Mr. Petrich,
That is interesting on your find of no HP gained having the nozzle after the IC. Do you know what percentage of water you are using? Also percentage of water to alchy, or meth?

With the placement of the Mini IC, this car is begging for WI. The system i mentioned above is expensive, but think of it like turning your $2.20 pump gas into $7 race gas!

 

Bouray and Jeff,

Glad to hear of your interest. Am running 100% pure Seattle rain water.

Jeff's comments about a two stage and continuously variable water injection systems are correct for so many applications. That said, I don't think that level of complexity is necessary for the MCS system. But, what do I know? I documented a small loss of HP/torque at the low end with my single stage water injection and corrected this loss by adjusting the boost level where the water injection begins to about 14 PSI. In my situation, I am tuning with water injection as a first order attempt to minimize loss of power in a heat soak situation and at high boost levels with my 19% pulley (a.k.a. track days). I am not trying to squeeze the performance envelope for every last iota of torque.

I too am surprised at the lack of measurable power recovery with the post intercooler water injection. I drilled and tapped both the pre and post IC manifolds and installed identical injection nozzles in each side. Using my best "logic", I began the dyno runs with the post intercooler water injection connection, sure that that arrangement was a killer. No way, Jose! A quick switch of the water hose and blocking cap got me a repeatable HP improvements with the pre-intercooler manifold connection. Those are the facts.

Am interested in others experiences.

Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

did you try running with a little denatured alcohol in there? It helps the burn process while still keeping it cool. Maybe a 50:50 mix might help you gain a little power and help keep heat soak and detonation at bay. Just a thought.

 

On the evo's they are running 100% meth for about 50-75hp on average.

 

The problem with more than 20% meth or alchy is it becomes a fuel. The idea with water is to cool the charge temp and cylinder temps. (From my experience)When you get to the 50/50 level, AFR's change quite a bit and the EGTS can get higher. I have found that pure water, with about 10% meth works best for in-cylinder cooling.

Remember stochiometric on gasoline is 14.7, and meth it is 6.4, alchy is around 9.0. With that said when you use too much of any of these with gas it really screws with the AFR, and somewhat gives you a faulse reading of what is really going on. This isn't a problem but the car really needs to be tuned for this which isn't as easy as just squirting water. The water doesn't require tuning, other than adding more timing and removing fuel because you can

 

Im really interested in this I have an intercooler sprayer it helps a little but not a lot I tried searching around for some info but it seems to be hard come by I seen the aquamist system nice but expensive

surely some WI expert can share some info on how to do this effectively but cheaply it sounds simple and effective but what pressure do you need the water at? and what size nozzle? and when do you inject the water? and where is most effective to inject the water?

 

Let me get this straight. You're spraying water INTO the intake system? I've always been told that water is one of the worst things to have going into your engine.

 

There are lots of good web pages that detail the benefits of this old and great combustion engine technology. Just google it or as Jeff said, start at aquamist's location and go from there.

 

I put an Aquamist system 1 on my rig acouple of years ago, injecting before the throttle body (at the recommendation of the California distributor...I forget the name.) tried it out (water) on the Helix dyno. No affect whatsoever. Later reports indicated spraying after the blower was more productive, but I got distracted. maybe i'll try again...

 

Does the ECU automatically advance timing when it senses lower intake temp? How does this kind of system operate with a piggy back like Unichip?

 

that would be great please try this it would be very interesting to see what happens and what sort of results you get

 

Cooper S IRE,
If you look at the WRC rally cars, many of them use the sprayers everywhere. They will spray water before the IC, after the IC, in front of the IC, and some even before the turbo! With the same single nozzle kit from Aquamist you can buy a tee and have it squirt into the IC and on it. Talk about benifits!

jlm,
I do remember your pre TB WI, and i was just thinking about what ever happened to that. I would like to see the results also if you install it before and after the IC.

MSFITOY,
Yes, generally the ECU has an air temp table that adds or subracts timing from the base map based on temp. Also the cooler temps will prevent knock which also the ECU sees and advances timing. So as long as you don't inject too much water timing goes up, and HP goes up!

 

yeah I have seen the Aquamist kit and it retails at 500 GBP thats about 800 euro and even more in Dollars
the gains would want to be exceptional for that sort of money
I'd like to spend as little as possible for this as the gains are probably not earth moving but maybe are noticable?
and the concept is pretty straight forward if you can gain enough info and understanding about how much to spray and where is most beneficial and at what boost pressure to spray at, this could be done on the cheap
and maybe my 800 euro could go to some other mod

 

Even their 2D system, which is about $800 US, is pretty cheap compared to other things that can give you the power potential this has. The 1S is about $500. The extra money is worth it for the 2D i think, and i think the money it will save you in race gas is well worth it.

 

so what sort of gains does this have the potential of unlocking
roughly in HP
this is why I was waiting for jlm to refit if he does and give us some feedback
also im not being smart but why does'nt Alta have a WI kit or any of the other tuners if this has such a big potential??????

 

Thanks Jeff for your reply. What do you think of the Coolmister kits?

 

now there is something worth looking at reasonably priced looks good any feedback on this system???????

 

Cooper S IRE,

Read my posts above.

Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

Cooper S IRE,
Well, we either compete with the masters (Aquamist) or compete with the FloJet users. These are the guys that buy the off the shelf FlowJet (or pumps like them) pumps and hook up it up to the cars using other off the shelf pumbing parts. These kits are really inexpensive and it would be hard to compete with. These kits are not bad at all, just not put together our style. The Aquamist stuff is our style but their pumps are very high tech and custom made as are their nozzles, and everything they make. Basically we would copy thier stuff which is also, not our style.

To compare both aqumist to the coolmist and other companies:
Aquamist, uses a custom made (with patents) pump that is all 303SS and aluminum with nickle plating for ultimate protection against corosion against methonol.

Others use an off the shelf pump that uses a plastic body, and isn't compatable with all chemicals. They are ok with alchohol, but not meth.

Aqumist has really nice connectors, pressure sensors, wiring, and control units for delivering differnt amounts of water, all parts are nickel plated aluminum, or SS.

Others use crimp connectors, and other off the shelf type sensors. All the sensors are plastic, and can break very easily.(which a friend of mine has had both his pressure switch and is blocking solenoid crack in half)

The nice thing is they both get the job done, they just do it differently. For a basic Aquamist system $500, for the others they are about $200.

I belive both fit 2 different customers. One is for the guy that buys the high zoot type stuff, and the other is for the budget minded DIYer. I personally use the Aquamist system, but being in the industry really helps what i pay for them. If i was in your shoes, cost would be a big factor, and i surely would think about the other types.