After shipping a few preproduction units, we received a phone call from
a Gentleman in Portland Oregon. He informed us that he decided to take the
M7 AGS to Loyning's Engine Service Inc to have some flow tests done prior
to installation.

The results are posted below, with some telling images of both the M7 AGS
and the Stock supercharger tube. As the flow numbers show an increase
of 21.1% or volume of 122.2 cfm.

A special Thank's to Spike..



Loyning's Air Flow Chart



Stock Supercharger tube


M7 AGS supercharger tube



peter
Team M7

562-608-8123

 

And how many cfm does the engine process at 7,000 RPM?

 

OK. I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about this sort of thing so I'm going to ask a stupid question (well, ok, several stupid questions). It makes sense to me that air would flow more efficiently through a straight tube than through a curved one. So, the numbers back up that intuition. Great. But what does increased airflow mean to the engine? Does it mean anything? Can the engine effectively utilize the additional air flow? If so, for what? Thanks for your explanation.

 

It is just another step for modders to use to add power. It provides more O2 to the car which means more air to use. Better to have more air than one can use than run out...

 

Can you please show the dyno numbers? This info is useless.

I thought you said in an earlier post you had done all the flow numbers.

 

122.2 cfm increase? good god, I'm hoping my prototype exhaust hits numbers like that when the company manufacturing it can pry it back from me....

now Peter, the only trick is to get that thing SEALED so I can enjoy it with my CryO2 system as we had discussed on the phone!

 

Not to let the cat out of the bag, but the heat shield is allowing you to run
CryO2 system without killing the engine.

peter
M7 Tuning
562-608-8123

 

These numbers are better than HP numbers, because HP numbers will depend on the specific set of mod on the tested motor.

Matt

 

WOW, time to start the Christmas list or fathers day list . Nice increase in are volume.

 

Agreed, and there always seems to be variations in dynos and hp can change with the temp of the car, altitude, etc. If the purpose of the air gain system is to increase the air flow to the SC (which I am assuming that is the purpose because of its name), then the chart shows that it is effective in increasing the amount of air in the SC.
This is one reason why it seems odd that there are hp figures for larger intercoolers. Instead if there are tests that show a reduction in engine temp by a certain percentage, those figures should be produced as those are more important. Moreover, and AGS system in a colder climate would probably produce more hp than in a warm climate, but there should be a general trend in increased hp.

 

Ther are hp " figures " for larger intercoolers but the actual " numbers / proof " are harder to come by.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

in essence a larger IC would produce the same hp as the stock intercooler if dyno'ed directly from start up. I thought the hp gains resulted from keeping the engine colder longer. Or do I have this all wrong?

 

It Intake Air Temp. That (in deg K) times pressure is proportional to mass (number of O2 Molecules to burn!). Cooler air charge > More power....

So, a larger IC should recover from heat soak faster, and have a lower average IAT.... At least that's the theory....

matt

 

IMO the AGS premise for function begs several questions:
1) Does the AGS increase velocity of intake air, on its own/in tandem with the T/B?
2) Does the AGS tube have a larger inner volume than the OEM tube?
3) Does the OEM tube restrict flow to the supercharger?
4) At which rpm does the OEM tube begin to restrict flow to the supercharger?
5) What is the maximal volume the supercharger can flow at engine red line?

One of the best points made in reference to this subject was made by andy@rosstech. His comment had to do with the supercharger having a fixed volume of air it could scoop up per cycle.

How this relates:
If the supercharger can only scoop up X volume of air at any given rpm, then to make power the AGS must do one of two things… Relieve restriction which (without the AGS) is limiting the supercharger’s ability to function, and or increase the density of air available to the supercharger.

Being that the AGS does not appear to increase air velocity or otherwise pressurize air prior to the supercharger lessening restriction appears to be the only possible function of the AGS.

The AGS may benefit from being located forward in the engine compartment. It is conceivable that this forward placement would improve air supply and quality – colder (than further under the bonnet), denser with O2. This alone might explain some power improvement.

It seems probable that the AGS’s less restrictive routing would also improve throttle feel – quicker response and lighter action.

However
It seems improbable that the AGS could improve power across the rpm range. The reason being: At low rpm supercharger function is not restricted by flow obstruction, but rpm. Only pre-compressing the air prior to the supercharger would improve this – like in the Twincharged MINI’s which utilize turbos.

It is also conceivable that slight pressure increase might be achieved (at higher rpm) by implementing a throttle body with a velocity stack (horn-shaped) neck/throat.

It seems most likely, that the AGS will improve power in the upper RPM range where the supercharger is more likely to experience restricted function due to the obstructed airflow.

Man I need to get some sleep

 

the difference on the butt dyno does tend to kick in around 3.5-4K rpms.

 

All good points but you also have to factor in the loss of boost due to the added volume of the larger intercooler. This is certainly a complicated task but some have found numbers ,10 hp for example ,and it would be very interesting to find out just how that was accomplished I have been trying to decide on getting one myself so it is of interest to me as well.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

Here are a couple of off topic facts to help answer the IC question. 11whp/8lbs tq improvement measured on an Auterra DynoScanner; factory map on both the runs. My boost gauge saw NO loss in boost, tagging 18lbs at redline before and after the GRS IC.

1st run: 170WHP/155TQ
2nd run with the GRS IC was 5 degrees warmer: 181WHP/163TQ. 2 weeks between the runs; same road. And this is with a 19% pulley, known to really add heat to the IAT.

Also, I generally see an average 13 degree F cooler delta in IATs while under boost as monitored with same Auterra. Been watching the IATs for 3 weeks as I drive back and forth to work, to get a feel for what's happening.
Complete review at: http://www.minimods.us/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=52
ciao,

 

I think the flow improvement is a benefit, however the comparison is tricky:

the AGS is shorter and straighter than the stock tube; you could have better numbers from the stocker by simply cutting off the elbow.

An interesting comparison would be to add everything up to and including the filter then test both systems. My guess is if the AGS shortens the path and removes some turns, it will shiw flow improvement. But as Mac said sarcastically a while ago: "brilliant" would you expect it to be different?

whether this will show a power increase has yet to be shown, it has potential. The downside seems to be the connector and maybe the filter itself, (Alta had made a few numerical comparisons to it)

 

If its flow we're increasing & HP can be gained, and the connector/filter could be the limiting factors, then why not put just the AGS tube on a Twincharged car? It would eliminate the filter issue and should be easier to see end result power with the kind of boost/flow Hubie is running. Maybe we'd see a 450 hp MINI?

Yeah!

Peter,
Why not send one of your AGS tubes to Hubie at SPI!? He's already running some big-*** velocity tube to feed his turbo. If the AGS could help Hubie make power it would go a long way to showing how much of a difference improved flow can make. ....Worth a shot, don't you think?

 

YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT ON THE PHONE! I had asked you what could be done and you told me I needed to weigh out the benefits from using the CryO2 when compared to the benefits from having the AGS installed - now I have to rethink my shopping list all over again.......

Thanks Peter!

 

Maybe you need to re-think where the intake attaches on a turbo car.

Threads like this make it evident why vendors don't need to provide any numbers to back up their claims... most of their customers don't know how to interpret them anyway.

 

Velocity, from my perspective, can be a double edged sword; too much at low rpms and power - torque - suffers. Not enough at high rpm and hp suffers. cfm and velocity have tricky characteristics determined by many things, the shape and length of the intake path for starters. A shorter and more direct route do not guarantee more power everywhere in the power band. We seem to become enchanted and romanced with raw power numbers without considering time. Yes, time! I became accutely aware of time with my last two cars. In particular, my Acura Type R. It produced 213hp @ 9,100 rpm. This slightly modified engine produced all the entra power between 8,000 and 9,000 rpm. Great, it made 213hp and spun really quick. It still takes time getting there. My point, Acceleration is essentially the result of work. Work is a time/distance equation. So, what does the velocity curve look like, what does the cfm curve look like and where is the power produced...or shifted. How do these things affect the amount of time it takes to produce a given amount of power? Dunno.

I'm still buying the AGS as I do not posses either the tools or the time to accurately measure these characteristics in any context resembling my goals.

Porting and polishing the SC would in theory help the AGS work better...a potential answer to Andy's question - ported and polished head with big valves will help too, then the exhaust...etc.

 

Hubie replaced the stock s/c tube back in dec of 03 with his own custom system. There are pictures on the thread

 

Agreed! Kudos to M7 for posting flow results from one component of their intake. What really matters though, is the flow numbers for the entire AGS from air filter surface to the supercharger inlet, compared to the stock intake from air filter surface to the supercharger inlet, compared to the HAI from air filter surface to the supercharger inlet.

BTW, was a different lift used for each of the runs? It looks like the valve was open more for the AGS runs?

 

with the AGS filter crammed into that small space and exposed to engine temps, I want to find a way to get some fresh cold air to that system. As little room as there is I know with some modification to that front bonnet seal (where the stock air box gets its air) you could get a good air flow down to the AGS. I would just love to see what the AGS could do if it had a constant source of cooler, denser, air. The only thing stoping me from buying this system is that it seems like it is not up to it's full potential. Does anyone else feel like it could be further improved?