You are comparing a company not publishing performace numbers for it's performance part to an act of terrorism that kill 5,000 people?

 

I'm saying that when the enivornment changes, our decisions should take that into account. If not, that's foolish... However, with that said, some would say that some here are terrorists

M7 simply changed their mind from when they said that they would release supporting data. The NAM environment is making our vendors/tuners quite leary on wanting to do so. M7 is not the only company who sees this as a factor on what they share, and how they choose to do so...

 

They didn't tell me to buy it and dyno it for them and they more than likely did their own R&D, so why don't they share it here and end all of the speculation and controversy. They said they would do that for us, at the same time telling us it outperforms everything else that is out there. But, that being said, all the people who are calling people asking for numbers that were promised trouble makers and so forth (nevermind the little reference to terrorists ) have said over and over again, that we are to buy it and dyno it ourselves??? So you're right, life is full of choices and I have made mine concerning the AGS. To each their own.

 

This is why I love you andy

 

From past experiences, sharing it here just creates rat hole that spirals into pointless conversations, like this one . Peter said that he would provide information based upon a NAM evironment that at the time he felt would embrace such data. After seeing a fellow vendor/tuner get throttled a couple months back, and subsequent occurrences, he changed his mind. It's a business decision that many can hopefully understand.

Folks keep saying 'he said he would provide numbers...' The analogy I mentioned is a very relevant one. NAM is our world in which we operate here. If the environment changes such that we are treated more harshly for our actions, we then need to act differently, change and evolve. Let others release the damn numbers and deal with the consequences, if they so wish. It's pretty obvious that a product can sell like hotcakes without the manufactuer providing any numbers at all; Alta (and others) showed us that. M7 really wanted to release some cool and interesting data, and that was his intention, as he said. It is no longer, unfortunately, and that decision can be attributed to the perceived hurtful environment we now have...

mini d, I apologize if I came across a bit harsh. I respect your decision, and your thoughts supporting it...

I just got another PM today about how civil MINI2 is compared to NAM. Oh well...

 

On SOME subjects...

 

Here's something I don't get. You've done a ton of cool mods to your car including the straight-through exhaust system, and have shared pics, sound clips etc. Have you faced any questions as a result that made you feel threatened or that anyone was "out to get you"? Why do you feel that the entire NAM environment is poisoned as a result of feedback you got from one vendor, who happens to post unsubstantiated claims?

 

I have always considered you respectful and well spoken, I am just tired of the drama and should have known better to jump into it

 

Hi Andy. That's a fair question. I haven't quite shared sound clips just yet, but I get what you're saying...

No, I've never felt that way. While I believe in my heart that my exhaust was a nice addition, and does indeed aid in performance, besides the weight reduction, I've never felt the need to prove it to myself by evaluating it with various tests. If I were selling that item to the Community, I would certainly want to know for sure before I put my name on it though...

That said, even as a non-vendor, I feel the need to be very cautious with what I say, and how I say it here. For that reason, I never did start a thread on it, and I have recently only mentioned it when someone asks. If I were selling it against competing products, I think that's where it can get really nasty. Since my exahust is just my exhaust, and I have not been touting it like one probably could, I will not get much grief, and have not...

Without a doubt I'm on the record for supporting not just M7 with fervor, but also Randy Webb; on many occasions. I do so when I feel that the negative commentary is unjustifiable or simply not totally accurate in portrayal. It's just not an M7 thing. Heck, some might find this a bit surprising, but I only have two M7 products on my MCS at the time. The delrin bushes were a bit too hardcore even for me, but that would have been three. An OCC has been waiting for an install, but you get the point... I do what I do because I care, and not because I'm provided an abundance of product for my efforts. I got the impression that some might think that. I'm motivated by my convictions, and also because I don't want to lose the likes of M7 providing products for the MINI...

By the end of Spring, I plan to get several M7 products installed, including the AGS. As with my exhaust, the time-tested concepts of the design were my selling point...

mini d, thank you. I once used to look forward to email alerts from NAM! Now, I sometimes dread them, and the sense of obligation I invariably feel when it's a topic such as this. I think "drama" describes it very well, unfortunately. Take care, and thanks for the nice closure :smile: .

 

If the above statement of yours is really true, then why did M7 recently release some favorable flow data about the connector tube, even though that data was obtained by someone else? Don't you think that M7 would jump at the chance to release performance (power) data if it were positive and suported their claims about the AGS? The putative unfavorable "environment" on NAM is just an excuse to sidestep the issue at hand.

It really appears that a distillation of the various comments on the AGS subject is that M7 has its own data showing very little or no gain in power. If that were not the case, then the data would have been presented. "2 + 2 = 4, not 5".

 

Hi Bob. M7 did get favorable data, and some of it I still have on my data-logger. Since it would be from him though, he chose not to share such. When the customer contacted him with the results from this test, in trying to appease some here, he was more inclined to share this data hoping that it might be more free of ridicule, given that it was from another party. Obviously, it still drew some scrutiny, as with you now questioning his motives and reasons for not releasing his own results.

So since M7's testing data is not provided one can then easily deduce that the results were minimal? Ok. Contrary, maybe the output was exceptionally high, so much so, that some wouldn't believe it. Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with living on NAM day and night dealing with piddley, incessant whining about why he chose a certain test over another, or dyno'd stock, vs. a various combo of mods, etc...

As with the other aforementioned intake (Alta), he too stated what attributes of the AGS make it special and unique, and why those qualities lend themselves to performance gains. Folks will judge for themselves, and as always, time will tell. Prevailing market forces as a whole will decide the fate of the AGS and M7 for that matter, not a few drama queens. April was a banner month for M7, and with a few more precincts open, and votes still being tabulated, extrapolations for May are even more promising...

If I don't chime in again, please understand that I'm not being rude, or trying to avoid anyone. I'm going to unsubscribe now as I'm finding this all very repetitive, and with that pointless. Ciao.

 

I've spent a good amount of time this morning reading through all of the AGS threads, the HAI thread and every other recent air intake thread I could find on this forum.

Given all the complaints from various parties regarding the lack of dyno testing for a totally stock MCS versus the same vehicle with the AGS intake added I felt certain I'd see all kinds of graphs for these same situations with intakes such as the HAI, BMP, Alta, etc. And of course I expected that these would be vendor / developer provided, given that that's what's being expected of M7. Surprisingly, I didn't find any such information. I did find one horsepower & torque graph for the Alta versus the HAI on an MCS but it was unclear if it was done on an otherwise stock MCS - and there was no baseline data shown for this vehicle in stock configuration. Nor was this dyno test done by Alta or the developer of the HAI.

It's a big forum, lots of threads and posts so it's quite possible I just didn't find the information I'm looking for. Links to such graphs would be most welcome.

In any case it seems to me there's a great deal of unreasonable whining and moaning going on around here. Most of it seems to revolve around the fact that M7 had originally committed to posting dyno numbers and then changed their mind. I'd like a show of hands here - has anyone else ever changed their mind on something after they committed to doing it? Seriously people, do you realize how immature you sound whining about this sort of thing? It's like being on an elementary school playground listening to kids argue about who kicked the ball out of bounds. Amusing at first but then it just starts to grate.

Most of the posters who have been complaining about M7 seem to have other aftermarket / homemade intakes on their cars. I'd like to know something: did you demand the same information from the vendors you bought the equipment from before purchasing? If not, why not? Have you gone after every vendor of every add on who also uses a few superlatives in their postings with the same kind of intensity? If not, why not?

Let's have some balance here people.

 

I'm beginning to actually feel embarassed for M7. Good God, just post them and be done with it. Not every tuning idea has to succeed -- there are always failures along the way.


They'll gain more in credibility than they'll lose if they just come clean on the numbers. It's pretty obvious now that the dyno numbers suck anyway. If they were good M7 would have been parading them around like a blue ribbon show dog.

 

Please dont...get a life, drive your car and enjoy. Getting on this thread every other day to ***** over our decission is neither fun educational or positive.

All your post regarding the AGS is negative, and if my PM count regarding
this topic and it's detractors is an indication you are very lonely in your assertions....Period

For the last time... We will not give out numbers, as no matter what we post
we will get slammed, bad mouthed or worse. This was proven this week.

To all of our fans I like to say thank you. Randy and I do appreciate you
support.

peter
Team M7

 

Saying "since they didn't prove A, not A must therefore be true" doesn't hold water. Without numbers, it just unknown.

It's also not obvious the dyno numbers suck anyway.

Matt

 

Wow, this sounds like a witch hunt. Slam M7 for there scoop, slam them for the AGS what next. We sometimes do ourselves such a disservice and upset venders. Boy I can name 10 cars (forums) that are crying for venders to produce mods for them. This does not only happen to M7 but to other MINI venders as well, we must stop. Said with MINI LOVE --George:smile:

 

Most of the early adopters understand that new ideas and technology are.......new. (More air does not necessarily mean more power........) The Mini mod community is small, underfunded etc. This is not 'life safety-fire evac system or an elevator.' This is a freaking air intake for a "fun" car. Let's keep it fun, not f*****d! The $ derived from a wildly successful product often can't justify the development costs associated with documenting every step of the way...... I have read enough spec sheets in my life that have so little bearing on reality that I believe documentation can say anything you want it to. There are factors that are hard to quantify and fully understand. How this or that parameter is really going to affect performance is often unknown and only understood much later. If you factor in some of these development costs and hassle factor often it is not worth the innovators time and it certainly is not fun for them........ask anyone who deals with UL.

I just got word from someone i respect who has an AGS and has tried everything including HAI and says that AGS works the best. Based on his recomendation I am probably going to get one. It's that simple
Vote with your $....... If you think it is BS, don't buy it. Why waste all this energy. The design is not without merit. This reeks of NIH syndrome (not invented here)

Not that I am the dyno king, far from it, but man the results are inconsistent and often inconclusive and very dependent on the operators methodology (ask Randy or Eric). We are talking single digit HP improvements here......maybe 2%.....

btw, I need to drink less coffee and find a new girlfriend.

 

You're getting slammed without the numbers, so what does it matter if you get slammed for posting the numbers? The logic of your statement makes no sense at this point in time. You didn't want to post any numbers b/c you felt you'd get slammed, so you didn't and you're getting slammed anyways....POST YOUR FINDINGS! At least we'd have something to aid in our decision as to buy or not.

I won't lie, I'm very interested in the AGS because the concept makes some sense, but without any data.....

 

This has really gotten way out of hand.

Like gmcdonnell said in #112, lots of people went out and bought all kinds of CAI's without a scrap of data except what the vendor said it would do. Nothing even remotely looking like a dyno chart, flow bench numbers, or anything else for that matter was provided to support these claims, just what the vendor said. I believe (and I could be wrong because I just don't have the time or patience to look at every one of his posts) even the King Of Numbers Andy, had a CAI before playing with the HAI. Want to bet he bought it without seeing a dyno chart to prove the results? How many of you, honestly, went out and bought a CAI on the word of someone else who has a MINI, based on their "butt dyno."

Oops, sorry for pointing out the obvious hypocrisy.

The reality is this, because it is M7, many have an axe to grind for what ever reason. Yes, he did say he would post numbers to back the claims initially. But he also retracted that statement later based on the feedback another vendor experienced when they posted numbers. Numbers that were questioned from here to hell and back.

Numbers have been posted now that show it flows better then the same section of intake piping provided by the manufacturer. Now imagine all of the other flow restrictions removed that come before that section of piping, provided by the manufacturer, and it would not be to difficult, for some, to come to a conclusion. A conclusion based on sound reasoning capabilities, a good analogy was the straw concept another poster provided.

Yet, even when these numbers were provided, people were not satisfied. In what twisted universe do you think, not you personally 04YellowS, dyno numbers would change this? If these numbers are ever posted, they will be torn apart by the those with the previously mentioned axe.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you are waiting for dyno numbers from Peter, I hope you aren't holding your breath. If you want dyno numbers before purchasing then wait, maybe someone will post them, but again I wouldn't hold my breath. If you want numbers, convince your friend with a MINI to buy it and then convince them to get it tested, and then have them share the numbers with you. Otherwise clamoring for the numbers from Peter is just wasting your time, don't you have anyting else better to do?

 

it is not about the numbers any more, get it?

It is that many feel they got the huckster treatment and the huckster treatment seems to be acceptable.

my personal opinion, stated above more than once, is that the ags seems to be a reasonably priced appropiate item. It is also my opinion that M7 does not seem to be accountable for statements they made. it is that simple.

 

You have proven my point, quite well in fact. You are part of the group with an axe to grind, although a small axe it would appear.

If you consider M7 a huckster, what about the other vendors who have engaged in making questionable claims? Claims that weren't questioned at the time when the sheep bought CAI's, and other products, without supporting documentation. If this is the basis for your claim, then yes it would appear that the huckster treatment is acceptable from some of the vendors who sell aftermarket products for the MINI.

Yet you don't appear to hold those same vendors to the same standard of proof.

Thus the statement regarding hypocrisy, get it?

While we are at it, when was the last time any vendor was accountable directly to you, or anyone for that matter? They are accountable to their customers, which you appear not not be, do you get that?

That is, indeed, very simple.

 

frankly, I feel any vendor who brazenly states he has data to prove his doodad is better than any other doodad and that he will show such data ought be held accountable for that statement.
and if he does not follow through, how can he not accept what follows?

insert any vendor you like; and I'll make the same statement, whether it's a cam, headwork, ignition wires, plama booster, you name it. If I were only applying this to M7 but accepting it from other vendors, yeah, that would be hypocritical. Show me an equivalent scenario with another vendor and I'll jump on it.

 

You really didn't read my earlier post did you? Or you selectively remember just parts of it.

Let's get in the way back machine. The original post from way back stated a conservative estimate of 10% better flow, I believe. Now he has posted numbers from an independent shop that shows numbers better then that, You are not satisfied.

After telling us that he would post the numbers, he witnessed another vendor here get ripped a new one for numbers they had posted which were questioned. He chose to change his mind and not post the numbers, his right to do so. A few here have a hard time with that, while others have purchased the product and appear to be satisfied with the results.

You demand dyno numbers, which may or may not be available, despite that fact that he stated he would not post them. Who is chasing ghosts here?

I don't have the time or desire to go back and look at each individual thread containing information from vendors about their exhausts, intakes and other such products. Vendors made claims about HP increases for their CAI's and their exhaust systems to name a few. Claims that were found later to be generous and in some instances quite generous. These claims were proven incorrect by individuals here who went out and tested the products themselves, after purchase. There used to be an entire web site that contained a table of MINI products and the actual numbers gained after the installation of the product. It has been gone for quite some time now since the author joined a vendor. Imagine that.

As far as accepting what follows, I don't think he has had that much of a problem doing just that. You, and some of the others here, seem to have a difficult time accepting what has followed after he said he would not post the numbers.

 

Again, what does this number mean?

 

i guess you are right. I admit this is a vendetta aimed at Peter alone from a bunch of us quirks that will never be satisfied. mea culpa, not peter.