If i had the ability and passion to come up with aftermarket parts for the MINI, I would probably abandon all efforts immediately because of this forum. I don't know why M7 keeps getting criticized and nit-picked to ridiculous lengths at any post he makes. I get so irritated reading these threads sometimes because I have to sift through the majority of the posts that offer no help, only add criticism, and/or are questions in disguise to provoke doubt. For this reason, I take vacations from the NAM forum. I frequent many forums and this one is simply too much sometimes. I don't know how you deal with it Peter but I congratulate your efforts and thank you for your contributions to the MINI world, no matter how much mud keeps getting thrown at it.

 

I do have a simple question, not to get people more up in arms but.... (by the way this is not meant towards you cheese but I used your question for general purposes, sorry)

if you are really asking about what these numbers mean then why on earth do you bother trying to mod your car?

Why else do people put in a new intake? Is it not to get more airflow into the engine? If so then why do we have to ask this over and over again?

If not then why on earth do people put new intakes into cars for? Is it just for the sound? Is it for HP gains? is it both? If people are going to be such an *** about number then do what the brave man did, buy an AGS for yourself, run your car on the dyno before then after, then please post your results so that we can look at them and really not give a crap because we will know the numbers are skewed to your car's particular enhancements.

Hey- if you don't want to spend the money then use a credit card that has a damage policy on it. Buy it, install it, break it and then ask your credit card company for the money back.

As other people are, I am sick of listening to people **** and moan about a product and numbers and other such stuff.

As I have always believed, you have no right to discuss something until you have invested the time to try it out yourself. Until then, keep your bitching to yourself and your significant other.

 

heh...funny thing...cause the 1st year after the New Mini was released they had the Lowest satisfaction AND the Highest satisfaction rate of any manufaturer...

"Cause we have the most passionate of automotive owners" ...said Mini...

and that is why people ask LEGITIMATE questions...and the funny thing is...they are still being asked cause they are still un answerd....not slinging mud...

I have spent a good amount with M7 so understand that....I am not an enemy...but I do expect products to be proven by the vendor...and others...not avoided....and excuses made...

As my father the Colonel would say...

"excuses are lies rapped in reason"

 

I agree with you 100%. Ok, more like 90% because i am not a proponent of credit card fraud

 

I hope you knew what I meant.... I wasn't trying to promote that

 

by the way i was agreeing with CustomAV, Tuls just beat me to the next post

 

What really should be asked is....since these flow numbers have been issued...who has decided to get an AGS now ???
Either way, numbers or not, im still having mine

 

With all due respect, you have missed the point as evidenced by your first two statements above. M7 originally made claims about the power advantages of their intake system (AGS) and stated on this forum that data would be supplied. However, the only info given was an early claim of 10% better air flow for their TB-to-SC tube than the stock unit. The other day, additional information about air flow, as tested by a different lab, was presented.

Contrary to your assertions above, there is absolutely no evidence that the putative airflow characteristics of the M7 TB-to-SC tube actually result in more power in the Mini. Furthermore, there are no data that the entire AGS (tube + air filter) results in an increase in airflow, let alone power. If it can be demonstrated that the entire AGS leads to greater airflow that results in a material power increase, then M7 does indeed have a good product. To date, the data that have been presented just show the benchflow characteristics of a polymer tube. Until power data are shown, the AGS is a unit that looks nice and has interesting sound characteristics. It is very naive to make the leap from benchflow phenomena to power increase.

Your third statement above is just plain ridiculous. If you're upset that people ask for the information that the vendor said he would provide, then you do not understand the issue at hand.

Respectfully,

 

We've got a bunch of lawyers in these forums :smile:

 

I am not upset that people would ask for information. That is not the point I am trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that too many people believe everything they hear and read without actually experiencing it for themselves.

I only bring this all up in hopes that people (which they already have) wont jump to conclusions about products or a company until they try it for themselves.

With all the negativity I have seen regarding m7 and this product I still went ahead and bought it so I could try it out. I am pleased with what I got and I am even more than pleased with Peter and the crew at m7. They work very hard to keep the customer happy and informed. They make phone calls to check on you and when a question arises that they don't have the answer to they find it and get back to you immediately. I will continue to support them for both their products and their services. They are simply fantastic as a company to work with.

As I said before- if you want some numbers go out and get them. Dyno the car before and then after but keep in mind that those numbers mean diddly squat except to a person who has the identical setup to you and even then there is going to be some variance that effects the run such as temperature, humidity and altitude.

I promissed I would not get involved in this type of thread again and I did, my apologies and I will not do it again (nor will I continue to read this thread to further iritate me)

Chris

 

Mr AV,
No offense taken. The reason for my question is because this isnt an intake in the traditional "upstream of the throttle body" sense so I'm not certain that more CFM equates to good, bad, or indifferent. I don't think there is a simple explanation and its' certainly not intuitive (atleast to me).

A counterexample to "more CFM is better" is in the exhaust system. When designing an exhaust, there is optimum exhaust tube diameter that is large enough to allow for maximum flow, but small enough that the exhaust can't cool and slow down. It's usually about optimizing tradeoffs. There is usually a range where you can maximize performance by carefully balancing quality and quantity.

I'm definately not saying that this the case for the ags. I have absolutely no idea and thats the reason for my questions.

 

Occam's Razor: "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"

Modernized and sound-byte-ified: "The simplest answer is usually correct"

So, we have several questions at hand. Which is the more likely answer to each one?

--------------------------------------------------------

Q: Why are there lots of responses to M7's posts?

A1: There is a vast conspiracy consisting of a few members who are "out to get" Peter, along with others who egg them on.

-OR-

A2: M7 has made numerous QUANTITATIVE claims for multiple products, which he has failed to back up with data, and the more logical and scientific minded members of this forum have been persistent about asking for that data.

--------------------------------------------------------

Q: Does the AGS outflow every other intake on the market?

A1: Yes, M7 did testing before making their claim, but now since so many people are asking questions, they choose not to show any of that testing data.

-OR-

A2: No such testing was done in the first place, comparing a complete AGS system to a complete stock or aftermarket system.

-OR-

A3: Tests were done but results were less than favorable toward the AGS.

--------------------------------------------------------

Q: Does the AGS make more horsepower than any other intake on the market?

A1: Yes, dyno tests have been done, which show the AGS outperforming competitors, but now since so many people are asking questions, they choose not to show any of that testing data.

-OR-

A2. No such testing was done in the first place, comparing a complete AGS system to a complete stock or aftermarket system.

-OR-

A3: Tests were done but results were less than favorable toward the AGS.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Does the AGS come with a Plazma Booster???????????

 

Yes, it would be nice if everyone had the time and money to just buy everything they might be remotely interested in and try it out. That would be especially great for the manufacturers since they could produce prettymuch anything they wanted and people would buy it. If it was crap, or cheaply made, or overpriced EVERYONE would know it, but then everyone would have bought one anyway...

 

I finally get mine next week along with a pulley the Dr. says!!!

 

A dyno number will put this to bed for US seeing as WE (madness) want to know if there is any HP gain.

Please let us know what competing product you're refering to as we would like to use it


No attacks here Tony, I believe we said there was a good gain in CFM, how is that a bad comment? Again when somebody actually posts a dyno to show that the CFM gain actually equals HP than I'm sold. End of story

Fishy how??????? they showed a gain in CFM... As for a certain engine shop, well it just happens to be one of the best in Portland, Spike actually suggested it and we concurred. All we did was loan him the stock part.

We were impressed with the AGS out of the box holding it in our hands, after the test and Spike sharing his results we were impressed again. If the dyno shows a gain in HP and TQ we will be VERY impressed! Like others we will decide for ourselves when the data arrives.

Tony I am sorry you see this as some attempt to discredit the M7 product as it surely was not. I hope it does provide a HP and TQ gain, if so we may just call Peter and ask to represent it.

Now Tony

 

so no one has dynoed AGS yet,....
i have driven in car that had AGS,and many more MODs sounded great.
but how much HP for AGS..
come-on people put up the resultes so we can see...
i think every body would be happy...for the 411 on the AGS.

i might just have to put a DYNO party together againe..
thanks...prospective buyer...

 

If Madness might have an interest in distribution of the AGS, a call to Peter would be in order then... Madness had one of the first, if not the first intake for us in the US (the Rogue); and I'm still running with it...

All of you guys who bring exciting new products to the MINI community are very much appreciated by many of us. There are different products to choose from, and with the various dynamics involved, different approaches and sales pitches are utilized. Not all products appeal to everyone, as do the methods to promote them; and sometimes that's by design, to hit a particular audience. For me it's very simple... if the product and corrsponding info supporting it stike a chord with me, I'm openning my wallet. If it does not, I still keep my mind open for further information that might change it (my mind)...

If I have a virgin stock MCS, and I see a performance package being sold that includes several mods from intake to exhaust, and items in between, yes, I would want to know what to expect from such in the way of power creation (a dyno) - on a stock MCS. However, given my mutt MCS (home job crap, along with parts from M7, Webb, Alta, Madness, etc), with the introduction of a new item into the mix, for me, the requirement of a dyno becomes more meaningless. The various mod combinations and permutations impacts power production, so no one dyno scenario (state of tune) will be representative of a mod's value to all.

mmMatt, I don't like butting heads. I want to see our manufacturers, tuners and vendors work together as much as possible, given the inherent competition that exists. Relationship-building and collaboration are often beneficial for business, and the outcome would certainly elicit still more cool products for the Community. I know that this is not always going to be feasible, but doing the opposite is certainly not something we should condone either...

A fantastic Spring weekend to all!

 

I will dyno with the AGS at the end of June. I have a baseline that was done on Monday of this week, and will report any gains seen, even if there are none.

BTW, I'm mildly modded. 19%, IK22's, and Pilo intake w/ airbox mod

 

End of June! Do you honestly think the earth won't come off its axis if we have to wait that long to put this issue to rest! At least that gives the litigators on each side time to plan their strategies.

Thanks (in advance) for sharing your dyno results. The world is waiting.

 

I know, the dyno day was supposed to be next weekend, but got pushed back. at $35 for 3 runs, it was worth waiting.

 

Every thread on AGS becomes a bit*h fest about this and that, all re-hashed. M7 is shipping product, and if you really want to know, buy one and test it. The flow numbers are what they are. That means that at WOT it can flow more. As to the question if it helps at part throttle, I don't know, and only carefully collected numbers will tell.

I've had my share of posts teasing M7 about the glacial release of the product, but come on folks, let's give it a break! I don't really see any new content in the posts that bash and defend M7's honor. No new content = no value in time or effort.

So, as a request to all the readers, if you find yourself wanting to make a point, please please please ask yourself if it's been discussed before. And if it has, please don't bother typing.

As a favor to us all......

Matt

 

Man, I can't agree more Matt. Thanks for the clarity. I'm at the point I just don't want to visit NAM at times...

 

THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT M7 SHOULD REQUIRE ME TO PAY FOR THEIR R&D AND PROVIDE THEM WITH NUMBERS THEY PROMISED TO SHOW!!

Most every other company I have ever dealt with has done the testing BEFORE releasing their product and those that didn't have not made boasts about their product outperforming all others and tell you they will release numbers showing such.

 

They (M7) don't require that you do anything... Life is a series of choices, and the ONLY thing that one must do is.... die. Everything else is a choice. If it bothers you that much, then make a choice not to buy it. With that in mind, many made the choice to buy the Alta intake without them releasing dynos or flow numbers. And there are other examples...

Just because they choose not to provide certain types of numbers that some want to see, that does not mean that they didn't do R&D. I personally know that's not an accurate assessment. Likewise, I would bet that Alta R&D'd their intake even though we were not privy to that research...

I had plans, and even promised a customer that I would visit them on September 18, 2001. Things radically changed one week prior, and I informed the customer that I would not make the flight. I (and my company) changed our mind due to circumstances out of our direct control. The environment had changed, and it was no longer considered conducsive to do so...

Peter of M7 had good intentions to share data, but given what's transpired here in recent weeks, he too has made a choice based upon what he sees in this environment. While many understand, others don't apparently. Make a choice based upon your sentiment, and move-on, or continue to have an open mind and decide later if and when more information presents itself...