Now you have to define what you consider testing:

Is it that they take the baseline and then bolt on their product and run the car on the dyno again?

Or do they have to test every single product that is out there and have their own test data as well as test data made by other companies so that we believe them?

When is the data enough?
So because RMS tested their own unit on their own dyno and said my product produces x amount of hp we have already a few that say that the data is bogus. They do not know the entire story but they judge the tuner right away.
Also there was data provided from a German forum by someone who bought the intercooler and had it installed by another company that did dyno runs before and after. But that might not be enough I guess.

You also have to explain then why some members here are nicer to certain tuners that provide the same data.....of their own dyno than to others?

And I am sure that everybody here discussing this topic bought tuning parts without seeing proper test infos of the parts.

Alex

 

This thread has gotten way off track.... Not sure how all "Vendor needs to provide more data" issue got started. Have you guy's read this thread from the beginning or just posting responses to the last post thus digging a bigger hole where you can no longer see the top.

Randy shows us a great new system that's still in development. Say's at this time it's producing 280hp. He posts a dyno sheet to prove that it has been tested at 282hp and say's he will provide more testing/dyno numbers as soon as he gets the system installed on his car. How can you ask for anything more? I'm excited and will be watching for future posts about this system.

 

Exactly! The product is STILL IN DEVELOPMENT! Don't call Randy's numbers "marketing hype" until the product is done and he is actually marketing it.

As with any product, the preproduction model offer more or less than the final product does. Wait until he has finished the product and see what his claims are then and then you have the right to give it to him all you want.

 

Ditto, tonjohn. I think vendors should be allowed to be as excited about potential products as everybody else. We should hold the "show me the numbers" part until a product is finished and offered for sale. I enjoy the "how does it work" part, though, as long as it stays collegial.

 

what I find entertaining is :


people on this board trying to tell me what a twincharge can/can't do and have never even ridden in the car.

It's like having a girl with natural breasts try and tell a girl with silicon breasts how they feel and what they do for them in the men department

why are people getting so worked up over product that may or may not ever end up being sold?

 

There are only a couple of people on this thread that are "worked up". At the end of the day this is all talk. I believe that your mini is incredibly fast even though I've never seen it, ridden in it or driven it. I've seen your dynos. Do I believe them? Yup. Why? Dunno.

You got the twincharged system because you believed the claims enough to go and investigate it yourself. I guess that if people believe Randy enough they'll do the same.

 

Maybe because of the "way" it was dyno'd. People that have seen dyno's performed know it was done correctly. Not to mention the fact that M7 was there watching along with 20 or so other interested parties. If the twinscrew showed a dyno in similar format most would probably not say a thing. But that is one of the most "strange" looking dyno sheets ever. JMHO

 

El, you as a consumer cannot change the world as to how people dyno. However, we as consumers must be smart enough to know that there are differing dyno techniques and differnent types of HP ratings. I'll just make an quick analogy to back when car audio electronics got real interesting back in the 1980's. All of a sudden there were different "types" of Wattage ratings that came out to show how "powerful" an amplifier was. No one standard existed. But I, and others, took the time to understand how the differing Wattage numbers were recorded/rated. That still made it difficult to compare one amp manufacturer to another, but at least we as consumers protected ourselves. So back to the dyno numbers. As long as we as consumers know and understand a few basics of dyno numbers, we'll all be just fine.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day.... but great point !!!! My point in all this is to educate people on the boards to the "differences" in dynoing so there is no "misunderstanding" in WHAT you are buying. :smile:

Having talked to a guy who worked at Stillen in their audio dept said the exact same thing you did about audio components.

 

El, what I suggest you do is start a new thread about dynos, and how to read the varied results, teaching people the proper questions to ask, and showing how a consumer can be better informed. I just don't think your current approach is getting you any "love". What I mean to say is that people don't respect what you're trying to say because of where and how you say it, no matter how right you might be. What I suggest, once you have your dyno education thread built, is to keep a link to it handy. That way when some thread you think people might be getting led astray, you can kindly point them to your dyno edu thread. It's not necessarily the content, but the conveyance of that content.

 

Perhaps, and I do not know how to do this, we should begin a dyno forum. Anyone who wishes to contribute may do so keeping a handfull of basic rules in mind. I can only define a few, so I'll rely upon you more sophisticated folk to determine any remaining dyno attributes.



1) Year and model, auto or stick
2) Include at least one baseline whp run characterized with all the
pertinent info such as ambient temps, elevation above sea level etc.
3) Type of dyno. Most shops will use the same technician, but if not point
that out too.
4) If you are a vendor, characterize your development status unless this
undermines some competative advantage.
5) If, in the development process, vendors are utlizing products and
therefore hp claims from from 'other' suppliers, site those hp figures,
but characterize the units(whp or bhp). Include the 'other' suppliers
dyno runs if possible.

Question for our Moderators: can you design - assuming this notion has any value - a format tied alphabetically to each member? There should aslo be a way, via a blinking light or some other icon, to alert members signing on when a new dyno run has been posted.

The tension in this thread tells me this will be a helpfull way of organizing clear or incomplete, read development, results.

 

You dirty dog, you beat me to it!

 

EXCELENT POST!
Thanks dominicminicoopers

 

One last thing:

Different countries different norms

Germany uses kw for power ratings. HP ratings there follows the DIN norm.

 

the point is Randy did post a hp reading and an unusual and curious dyno chart and this was not his own testing.


the hp claim got questioned by some who dispute the "math" used.

everyone looking at any hp number is going to compare it to something: either the stock number, numbers like El's, or mine, or any of many, many other claims, so some real world reference is going to be brought in.

If Randy has simply said something like: "this system shows potential, I won't buy (or sell) any hp claims until I test it" we wouldn't have the controversy. But in fact, most people want to believe huge numbers, properly tested or not.

There was a guy on Mini2 posting he got 278whp of of his modded mini and that he didn't have to change to larger injectors. A lot of his followers take that on faith, but the experience I have had is that you need bigger injectors to go beyond 210whp. so what do you believe?

to say it again:

re. dyno numbers:

I remember a TV episode of That's Life. Paulie was asked

by his sister "didn't he realize those breasts were fake?

His response: "why should I care?

 

John,

the point is that you said it is bogus without even talking to RMS.
Weird or not....you do not have all the info so you are not in the position to say that.

It is a scan of a print out...and just because RMS stopped the pull at 6500rpm does not mean it is fake.

You also do not have his baseline numbers.
For you as a vendor of some sort here on NAM you should not make things up without having all the info.

Either you call RMS or wait for Randy to provide better numbers.
I believe Randy mentioned clearly that he had plots from RMS and members wanted to see that.

Let me ask you a question:

When you sent your head to Endyn....did he present you with all the test data of a MINI head and what it would do for you before hand or did you trust him as a tuner because of his reputation?

Alex

 

Alex....

was the RMS dyno plot done with a stock MCS engine also? (no one knows for sure)

herein lies all of the speculation.....

Even Randy has said that you will need a head, cam etc to make it all work effectively... think $$$$$$$$$$$ and lots of it.... over 11-12k for the kit that is not going to make over 280whp without fixing the fuel problems inherent with the mini.... how much more to fix fuel problems???? $$$$$$$$$

 

...not a huge amount more if you know the right people in the right places...

Henry

 

the dyno plot does not provide sufficient info to be directly comparable to anything.


here is what would get it closer:

-same dyno but also a plot of the car before the mod, then we could see now the numbers compare (Randy's delta,) I didn't see it done or hinted at, just the big number given;

-some sort of correction factor listed so we can see how they get crank hp from wheel hp, then we could compare it to the tons of whp results out there;

-a plot of any stock mini on their dyno so we can get an idea of how that compares to what we know;

-a simple: "280 hp after, xxx hp before" statement.

this isn't asking a lot, but without any of it you risk skepticism, or else you don't really care about veracity, only the big numbers: like Paulie.

 

Dude you of ALL people should not bring up money LOL.

Lets see what you took to get to 281. Looking back at your past posts ,

Port and polished head
Throttle body
Cam
various intake and exhaust items ported / polished etc
Light weight flywheel
PLUS the SPI kit ( 5500 )
etc.
cost = ? = 276 HP

second edition

New head Pilo
cam ?
motor rebuild including Cryo rods etc.
custom pistons Pilo
etc.

cost approx additional $6k to $7k including labor = 281 HP ?

looks like over $1,000 per hp gain for the latest version to me and who is talking about $$$

 

It's worth it though. He is breaking barriers in the MINI tuning scene. You can't really put a price on that alone. For everything else, there's Mastercard (TM)

Henry

 

Never said it wasn't worth it . I am very interested in both projects as I think it will be good to see just how far the 1.6 can be taken. I just got a kick out of El talking about the dollars that MAY have to be spent on the RMS system when he has already spent at least 16 to 17k in the twin charge project and that is most likely a conservative estimate.

 

I am impressed that you know so much about my car but so little about what I have been preaching.....
Knowing what I know now I would never have bought some of the stuff for my car that I did... hindsight is 20/20 and you should be glad I am posting what works and what doesn't so YOU don't have to waste your money.

My car is now set up to run easily over 300whp once the fuel problem is fixed. No other mods will be need to done to get that hp. It's easy to talk trash as you sit on the sidelines while some of us are on the cutting edge pushing the envelope. But feel free to give me your .02... I am sure you will. Now if you want to foot the bill so you can walk the walk I will be glad to move aside and let you push the boundaries on the mini yourself and report back to the people who want to make the same HP w/o all of the $$$ spent. Some would like to hear how to do it in the cheapest manner possible. I know I would have.

 

Thanks, Henry...
guess I should have read 1 more post to see someone already responded to it. Some people seem to have agenda's.

 

boy.. how wrong are you?