Drivetrain RMS/Webb Motorsports twinscrew
3rd Gear
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From: London, UK
Randy,
I wish to buy one of these chargecoolers in the next few weeks. Does anyone speak English over at RMS because my German is a lil rusty?!
Another thing, the twinscrew that they use, is it an autorotor unit and as it stands (i.e. supplied direct from RMS) does its installation require the removal of the AC condenser (yes I've read the thread, I just need a definitive answer)? Is the 6-series water pump and RMS twinscrew homologation going to be a WMS exclusive or can I retain the AC condensor even if I went with the RMS kompressor today?
Thanks in advance,
Henry
I wish to buy one of these chargecoolers in the next few weeks. Does anyone speak English over at RMS because my German is a lil rusty?!
Another thing, the twinscrew that they use, is it an autorotor unit and as it stands (i.e. supplied direct from RMS) does its installation require the removal of the AC condenser (yes I've read the thread, I just need a definitive answer)? Is the 6-series water pump and RMS twinscrew homologation going to be a WMS exclusive or can I retain the AC condensor even if I went with the RMS kompressor today?
Thanks in advance,
Henry
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From: Denver
Great questions Dave.
I'll take them one at a time
Yes and no. There are several issues with a water-air set up. One of them is the higher thermal mass. You can avoid this issue by keeping that mass cool. Therein lies the solution - find a way to make sure the mass doesn't heat soak. You can do that by splitting the mass, optimizing the rate of flow - more time in the radiator, but enough time in the intercooler core to transfer heat energy - increasing the cooling area of the radiator, and increasing the volume of the radiator. You can also change the mass itself - for instance running Redline Water Wetter and water instead of running coolant.
What we are doing with the lysholm type supercharger is exhanging it for the less thermally efficient Eaton roots type supercharger. We are using the unit right now with 18psi. The reason we are replacing the supercharger - we can move more air at higher pressure with lower intake temperatures, giving us a higher density intake charge - more potential energy to convert to kinetic energy during the ignition stroke.
No, not with the new set up. You can use the A/C.
To get the 17psi of boost you have now, you are generating quite a bit of heat - Density = Pressure/Temperature, so you are losing density because of your temps. The new unit would make more power for the same boost.
Hope that answers some of your questions! I agree that the dyno runs are confusing, being in German. I will be sure to include unGodly amounts of info when the kit comes Stateside.
Thanks!
Randy
I'll take them one at a time
Originally Posted by D1JL
So let me ask because maybe I missed something somewhere.
Water is used to cool the intercooler but this is less efficient because the water retains heat. So we add more water. Doesn’t this retain the same heat and add weight too? Now this does keep the intercooler at a more constant, more predictable temperature and this is good.
Water is used to cool the intercooler but this is less efficient because the water retains heat. So we add more water. Doesn’t this retain the same heat and add weight too? Now this does keep the intercooler at a more constant, more predictable temperature and this is good.
Originally Posted by D1JL
Next we add a more efficient supercharger to compensate for the higher air temperature. Now as stated this new supercharger will provide up to 20 lbs of boost under racing conditions and under street conditions, one would assume less.
Originally Posted by D1JL
As I understand it we need to remove the air conditioning to use this new system. Of course for racing we don’t need air conditioning. But then I only track my car two times a year.
Originally Posted by D1JL
The dyno information is very difficult to understand at best and my car gets 17 lbs of boost now. So what do I gain by this $5,500.00ish system?
Dave
Dave
Hope that answers some of your questions! I agree that the dyno runs are confusing, being in German. I will be sure to include unGodly amounts of info when the kit comes Stateside.
Thanks!
Randy
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From: Denver
Originally Posted by greatgro
I don't get it. Our Eatons work the same way. More RPMs, more boost, more throttle, more boost. That's what the bypass valve achieves. 
The more pressure you make, the more temperature you make. The key is density, and it depends on both - directly proportional to pressure and indirectly proportional to temperature. The Eaton isn't as adiabidically efficient as a lysholm.
Hope that helps! :smile:
Randy
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From: Denver
Originally Posted by D1JL
This becomes more comical with each post. It seems to me that there a few people here that don’t understand the concept of horsepower and I believe this is true because they have never had a real good opportunity to have it or use it. High horsepower is a good thing; you just need to learn how to control it when you drive. In high speed driving you are always on the edge or you are not driving fast. Some people say that a Mini cannot be controlled on a road course with over 250 HP. To this I say BS. Normally aspirated, forced induction, liner or non liner power curve, no mater what it is or what you call it, you learn to drive what you have. The statement of not being able to control power coming out of turn nine at Willow is the biggest crock I have ever heard. Once I get straightened out that’s where I want the most power possible, to power down that long front straight.
Now I don’t know a lot of other tracks but I do know Willow, so for all you others.
http://www.willowspringsraceway.com/.../nineturns.asp
Even if you don’t have 250 HP how do you handle turns 3, 4, and 5? My point being, that you need to let off the throttle and reduce power, thereby controlling the power you have to make it around the course.
Remember that a road race course is nothing more than a group of turns connected by straight-aways. The turns are only there to scrub off speed and to get you back to the beginning.
Dave
Now I don’t know a lot of other tracks but I do know Willow, so for all you others.
http://www.willowspringsraceway.com/.../nineturns.asp
Even if you don’t have 250 HP how do you handle turns 3, 4, and 5? My point being, that you need to let off the throttle and reduce power, thereby controlling the power you have to make it around the course.
Remember that a road race course is nothing more than a group of turns connected by straight-aways. The turns are only there to scrub off speed and to get you back to the beginning.
Dave
I am not putting down any other method of achieving power - and you can check to make sure - I never have. I am pursuing this avenue because I want it for my own car, and I think it will be a great solution from both a drivability and reliability standpoint.
I have driven very high horsepower track cars - up to the mighty Porsche 935. They are not as fun to drive as the MINI. Sure, you can learn to drive them, and be very fast in them, but it isn't as fun, and that's what the MINI is about.
You have to remain within the limits of the chassis - whether that is a chassis you have improved or the OEM form. If you improve the chassis, you can take it farther. There will always be a limit to making a balanced car - and that limit will depend heavily on what you are using the car for. I am trying to make a balanced package to make this car true to its purpose - FUN!
Hope that helps!
Randy
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From: Denver
Originally Posted by supercoopers
Randy,
I wish to buy one of these chargecoolers in the next few weeks. Does anyone speak English over at RMS because my German is a lil rusty?!
Another thing, the twinscrew that they use, is it an autorotor unit and as it stands (i.e. supplied direct from RMS) does its installation require the removal of the AC condenser (yes I've read the thread, I just need a definitive answer)? Is the 6-series water pump and RMS twinscrew homologation going to be a WMS exclusive or can I retain the AC condensor even if I went with the RMS kompressor today?
Thanks in advance,
Henry
I wish to buy one of these chargecoolers in the next few weeks. Does anyone speak English over at RMS because my German is a lil rusty?!
Another thing, the twinscrew that they use, is it an autorotor unit and as it stands (i.e. supplied direct from RMS) does its installation require the removal of the AC condenser (yes I've read the thread, I just need a definitive answer)? Is the 6-series water pump and RMS twinscrew homologation going to be a WMS exclusive or can I retain the AC condensor even if I went with the RMS kompressor today?
Thanks in advance,
Henry
I would be happy to help you - the RMS team doesn't speak english all that well! I have been using a very good translator, and Herr Dagn has been kind enough to struggle through some conversations in English which he hasn't used for 12 years!
I have the intercoolers here now, and I'm sure I could work something out with RMS to get one to you.
The kit being developed for the US will be different than the kit offered by RMS, but yes, RMS will be able to offer you a kit using the electric pump as well. Of course, I would also be happy to help you. The kit from RMS will be available at the same time as it is here.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks,
Randy
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From: London, UK
Originally Posted by RandyBMC
Henry,
I would be happy to help you - the RMS team doesn't speak english all that well! I have been using a very good translator, and Herr Dagn has been kind enough to struggle through some conversations in English which he hasn't used for 12 years!
I have the intercoolers here now, and I'm sure I could work something out with RMS to get one to you.
The kit being developed for the US will be different than the kit offered by RMS, but yes, RMS will be able to offer you a kit using the electric pump as well. Of course, I would also be happy to help you. The kit from RMS will be available at the same time as it is here.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks,
Randy
I would be happy to help you - the RMS team doesn't speak english all that well! I have been using a very good translator, and Herr Dagn has been kind enough to struggle through some conversations in English which he hasn't used for 12 years!
I have the intercoolers here now, and I'm sure I could work something out with RMS to get one to you.
The kit being developed for the US will be different than the kit offered by RMS, but yes, RMS will be able to offer you a kit using the electric pump as well. Of course, I would also be happy to help you. The kit from RMS will be available at the same time as it is here.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks,
Randy
You have PM
Henry
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by RandyBMC
Actually, no that's not how the bypass valve works.
The more pressure you make, the more temperature you make. The key is density, and it depends on both - directly proportional to pressure and indirectly proportional to temperature. The Eaton isn't as adiabidically efficient as a lysholm.
Hope that helps! :smile:
Randy
The more pressure you make, the more temperature you make. The key is density, and it depends on both - directly proportional to pressure and indirectly proportional to temperature. The Eaton isn't as adiabidically efficient as a lysholm.
Hope that helps! :smile:
Randy
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From: Denver
I see what you are saying. Absolutely, you are right. The boost depends on both load and RPM, not just RPM, as the bypass valve does just that - it bypasses at low load conditions.
Sorry I misunderstood you!
Randy
Sorry I misunderstood you!
Randy
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Just saw your reply greatgro, but only because Randy responded (this thread is moving fast!)... Sorry about that.
I got that language from Kenne Bell's website. They are Supercharger guys, and the descriptives they use are often made in relation to turbos; and with that, why they prefer supercharging. The clues to that are in their expressions "no supercharger lag here" or their mentioning of no heat issues, etc...
Prior to Randy making this available to our community (I know, not yet), for a major jump in power, we only had the addition of turbocharing as a solution. This will be changing! While it seems that this option will be more expensive than a twincharged kit, I would venture to guess that the install time will be somewhat less; making the final cost a moot point. Just guess, but I think a solid one...
With predictable and controllable power-on-tap, and with drive-ability and reliability seen as integral, the comparisons are with a turbo
.
I got that language from Kenne Bell's website. They are Supercharger guys, and the descriptives they use are often made in relation to turbos; and with that, why they prefer supercharging. The clues to that are in their expressions "no supercharger lag here" or their mentioning of no heat issues, etc...
Prior to Randy making this available to our community (I know, not yet), for a major jump in power, we only had the addition of turbocharing as a solution. This will be changing! While it seems that this option will be more expensive than a twincharged kit, I would venture to guess that the install time will be somewhat less; making the final cost a moot point. Just guess, but I think a solid one...
With predictable and controllable power-on-tap, and with drive-ability and reliability seen as integral, the comparisons are with a turbo
.
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Holden, MA
I think that one of the great part of the RMS / WMS kit is the fact that there won't be as much modification needed as with the twincharge setup. No need to change headers, intake position, exhaust or anything like that. Seems to be almost completely bolt-on.
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Some background on the RMS supercharger kit:
The kit was developed for track cars without AC only.
He did not have a kit for AC cars until I called him and told him that there is interest in the US.
He then started devoloping a kit with not just any water pump. He sourced a pump from the only car manufactured and sold in Europe that has an electric water pump.....BMW 6 Series 3.0 to achive the best cooling in different load conditions and rpm stages.
About the WTAI:
It took 4 major designs to get the intercooler right. Again...it was meant for the track. It has two cores. It also comes with the relay....so you turn car off the pump still runs the water thru the system.
So let me try to explain what I think....I could be wrong:
So I guess with two inlets and outlets the water actually does not have to travel that long over the warm/hot intercooler taking up all that heat.Therefore the water does not get heated up that quickly.
This is for saying that RMS has bad service and parts.
Alex
The kit was developed for track cars without AC only.
He did not have a kit for AC cars until I called him and told him that there is interest in the US.
He then started devoloping a kit with not just any water pump. He sourced a pump from the only car manufactured and sold in Europe that has an electric water pump.....BMW 6 Series 3.0 to achive the best cooling in different load conditions and rpm stages.
About the WTAI:
It took 4 major designs to get the intercooler right. Again...it was meant for the track. It has two cores. It also comes with the relay....so you turn car off the pump still runs the water thru the system.
So let me try to explain what I think....I could be wrong:
So I guess with two inlets and outlets the water actually does not have to travel that long over the warm/hot intercooler taking up all that heat.Therefore the water does not get heated up that quickly.
This is for saying that RMS has bad service and parts.
Alex
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
Originally Posted by greatgro
I gotcha Randy. But I was replying to someone who stated that with your supercharger, the boost is dependent on throttle position and RPMs while the Eaton is dependent on RPMs alone. But the Eaton does also depend on both, no???
So that's the concept about the twinscrew and throttle position. I can go WOT at 3000rpm and have full boost immediately with the twinscrew. With the eaton, I can go WOT at 3000rpm and full boost is not achieved until I hit my rev limiter. So I can get 17psi boost at 3000rpm instead of having to wait to see 17psi until the rev limiter. Don't get me wrong, you will have boost with the eaton at 3000rpm, just not max boost.
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From: Denver
All done with the pissing contest - I've been on track with my car against other very formidable cars, much more than 230HP, and spanked them silly. I'm certainly not worried about your car. That wasn't a video of my car.
Again, anytime you want to hit a track - heck I've never even been on any of the California tracks - I'd be happy to come out. We could make an event out of it once I have the Autorotor installed. You are always welcome in Colorado at my home track (cheap too) and I'd even put you up out here. It could be fun for everyone (well, maybe one person wouldn't be happy )!
Randy
Again, anytime you want to hit a track - heck I've never even been on any of the California tracks - I'd be happy to come out. We could make an event out of it once I have the Autorotor installed. You are always welcome in Colorado at my home track (cheap too) and I'd even put you up out here. It could be fun for everyone (well, maybe one person wouldn't be happy
)!Randy
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From: So Cal
Originally Posted by RandyBMC
All done with the pissing contest - I've been on track with my car against other very formidable cars, much more than 230HP, and spanked them silly. I'm certainly not worried about your car. That wasn't a video of my car.
Again, anytime you want to hit a track - heck I've never even been on any of the California tracks - I'd be happy to come out. We could make an event out of it once I have the Autorotor installed. You are always welcome in Colorado at my home track (cheap too) and I'd even put you up out here. It could be fun for everyone (well, maybe one person wouldn't be happy )!
Randy
Again, anytime you want to hit a track - heck I've never even been on any of the California tracks - I'd be happy to come out. We could make an event out of it once I have the Autorotor installed. You are always welcome in Colorado at my home track (cheap too) and I'd even put you up out here. It could be fun for everyone (well, maybe one person wouldn't be happy
)!Randy
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From: Denver
Because I build cars as a package. I'd be happy to take on your car with another driver as well - heck, hire the best!
It also has to do with seeing your non-stop posts about power, with no regard to the big picture, and your mountain climbing approach to modding the car - because it's there is why I want 400HP.
So, it would make me feel good to spank your car, that you have touted so highly, with a car that has been built with the big picture in mind.
Obviously, it is late, and I had a couple, so I apologize for being more abrasive than my usual collected self.
Of course, any track with an oval and infield would be welcomed - big picture...
:smile:
Randy
It also has to do with seeing your non-stop posts about power, with no regard to the big picture, and your mountain climbing approach to modding the car - because it's there is why I want 400HP.
So, it would make me feel good to spank your car, that you have touted so highly, with a car that has been built with the big picture in mind.
Obviously, it is late, and I had a couple, so I apologize for being more abrasive than my usual collected self.
Of course, any track with an oval and infield would be welcomed - big picture...
:smile: Randy
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From: Twin Falls, Idaho
Originally Posted by El Diablito Rojo-N20Mini
racing isn't about going faster than the next guy.... it's only about being more fun?
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From: So Cal
Originally Posted by RandyBMC
Because I build cars as a package. I'd be happy to take on your car with another driver as well - heck, hire the best!
It also has to do with seeing your non-stop posts about power, with no regard to the big picture, and your mountain climbing approach to modding the car - because it's there is why I want 400HP.
So, it would make me feel good to spank your car, that you have touted so highly, with a car that has been built with the big picture in mind.
Obviously, it is late, and I had a couple, so I apologize for being more abrasive than my usual collected self.
Of course, any track with an oval and infield would be welcomed - big picture...
:smile:
Randy
It also has to do with seeing your non-stop posts about power, with no regard to the big picture, and your mountain climbing approach to modding the car - because it's there is why I want 400HP.
So, it would make me feel good to spank your car, that you have touted so highly, with a car that has been built with the big picture in mind.
Obviously, it is late, and I had a couple, so I apologize for being more abrasive than my usual collected self.
Of course, any track with an oval and infield would be welcomed - big picture...
:smile: Randy
must be the beer talkin....
