Drivetrain RMS/Webb Motorsports twinscrew
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From: Denver
You have two inlet lines and two outlet lines to separate intercooler chambers, pictured above. This theory was tested thoroughly on the track, and I'll put it through more here - alongside the GRS intercooler, the Alta intercooler and the FMIC.
Randy
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From: NY NY
if both lines come from and return to the same places (pump and radiator), I don't see what difference it could make other than reducing the flow restriction in the hoses.
and I claim that dyno plot is an implant.
and I claim that dyno plot is an implant.
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From: Denver
The effect of having one mass circulate differently than the other is where the improvement is. While they are going through the same pump and radiator, they are still flowing separately through the core, which again splits the mass. If you are cooling two masses versus one, it is easier to keep the total thermal mass from heat soaking.
It is working on a practical basis as well, so the theory bears out.
The dyno is an implant? Huh?
Randy
It is working on a practical basis as well, so the theory bears out.
The dyno is an implant? Huh?
Randy
Last edited by RandyBMC; Feb 15, 2005 at 04:36 PM.
6th Gear
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Randy, get with the program! 
Originally Posted by jlm
re. dyno numbers:
I remember a TV episode of That's Life. Paulie was asked
by his sister "didn't he realize those breasts were fake?
His response: "why should I care?"
I remember a TV episode of That's Life. Paulie was asked
by his sister "didn't he realize those breasts were fake?
His response: "why should I care?"
Turbius Maximus
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From: Infinity and beyond
What is the life of these new super chargers...the eaton was chose for it's aproxomate life of 100k + ...If this is a centrifugal supercharger style, I have heard they don't last past 25K sometimes...not that I would care for 300+ hp...just curious
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From: Denver
This is not a centrifugal supercharger - it is a Lysholm. They have been very reliable, but aren't usually chosen for production cars for two big reasons: the cost per unit, and the sound. The sound can be handled with the water-air intercooler, and the cost, well, you have to pay to play!
Tony - yeah, but that would mean the dyno plot is a fake! It's as real as, well, let's keep it rated G
.
Hope that helps!
Randy
Tony - yeah, but that would mean the dyno plot is a fake! It's as real as, well, let's keep it rated G
.Hope that helps!
Randy
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
If jlm feels they're fake, I'd want to hear why he thinks so. I think he was just being funny with regard to his last comment about dyno numbers. Glad you kept this G though 
.
Our Eaton has a sealed lubricant, and apparently should have its nose opened at 60k for a check-up, and the addition of more oil possibly. I think I read this on Manguson's website... The autorotor has oil pumped through it, and is said to be also quite durable. Here is was Kenne Bell has to say about it:
THE TWIN SCREW AUTOROTOR - It didn't take us long to decide which supercharger concept fit our criteria. The Autorotor had the looks, billet aluminum case, efficiency, durability and performance Kenne Bell demanded. Besides the obvious automotive applications, it had been used for many years in industrial applications to supply clean, oil free air to pressurize the cabins of large commercial airliners, industrial buildings, cold storage facilities, etc. The backbone of the new fuel cell technology is a twin screw compressor. Kenne Bell has used only Autorotor since 1991 and today is the exclusive U.S. Distributor for any and all Ford, Dodge, GM and other applications. We chose this supercharger because of it's low friction - low parasitic loss, long life, sealed bearings, self contained lubrication, high VE and AE, "instant boost", cool air charge, driveability, quiet operation and horsepower-torque advantage. Note: Kenne Bell is in no way associated with the company, Whipple Industries or "Whipplechargers."
==========
No mention about miles, but I'm sure someone could find more with a deeper search. If properly maintained, it seems to be a winner in that regard as well...
.Our Eaton has a sealed lubricant, and apparently should have its nose opened at 60k for a check-up, and the addition of more oil possibly. I think I read this on Manguson's website... The autorotor has oil pumped through it, and is said to be also quite durable. Here is was Kenne Bell has to say about it:
THE TWIN SCREW AUTOROTOR - It didn't take us long to decide which supercharger concept fit our criteria. The Autorotor had the looks, billet aluminum case, efficiency, durability and performance Kenne Bell demanded. Besides the obvious automotive applications, it had been used for many years in industrial applications to supply clean, oil free air to pressurize the cabins of large commercial airliners, industrial buildings, cold storage facilities, etc. The backbone of the new fuel cell technology is a twin screw compressor. Kenne Bell has used only Autorotor since 1991 and today is the exclusive U.S. Distributor for any and all Ford, Dodge, GM and other applications. We chose this supercharger because of it's low friction - low parasitic loss, long life, sealed bearings, self contained lubrication, high VE and AE, "instant boost", cool air charge, driveability, quiet operation and horsepower-torque advantage. Note: Kenne Bell is in no way associated with the company, Whipple Industries or "Whipplechargers."
==========
No mention about miles, but I'm sure someone could find more with a deeper search. If properly maintained, it seems to be a winner in that regard as well...
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From: Back IN Chicopee
Originally Posted by RandyBMC
I'd be happy to share my thoughts on why. The biggest reason is that it doesn't matter much to the bread and butter consumer. That leaves most in a quandry from a marketing standpoint, because if vendor Y is using BHP (like most do), and vendor X is using SAE, and both products are the same money, then Joe Customer is most likely going to buy the product with the higher number.
That is a fact I've seen in regard to marketing campaigns by many of the aftermarket vendors which has caused grief in my world. Posting realistic numbers is about all you can ask - trying to get everyone to use a standard that is lower in a number sense is going to be very difficult. You are not the average customer, in that you are aware of how to measure on a dyno, and the tricks that can be played with the numbers. Most aren't.
Which brings me to the last point - be happy with honest numbers. You can interpolate from BHP close enough to know if a vendor is fudging dyno numbers. Most agree that a 12% driveline loss is reasonable. That leaves us with as close to apples to apples comparison as you are going to see. For you, I will be sure to post numbers in SAE wheel once I start doing the testing Stateside...
Remember that my philosophy regarding the dyno is to have a useable tool. I could give a flip whether or not it is SAE - as long as it is consistent. That makes it apples to apples for me. It is only part of the package. I also do same gear acceleration runs and track testing, as well as data gathering (temps and pressures for instance).
Hope that helps!
Randy
That is a fact I've seen in regard to marketing campaigns by many of the aftermarket vendors which has caused grief in my world. Posting realistic numbers is about all you can ask - trying to get everyone to use a standard that is lower in a number sense is going to be very difficult. You are not the average customer, in that you are aware of how to measure on a dyno, and the tricks that can be played with the numbers. Most aren't.
Which brings me to the last point - be happy with honest numbers. You can interpolate from BHP close enough to know if a vendor is fudging dyno numbers. Most agree that a 12% driveline loss is reasonable. That leaves us with as close to apples to apples comparison as you are going to see. For you, I will be sure to post numbers in SAE wheel once I start doing the testing Stateside...
Remember that my philosophy regarding the dyno is to have a useable tool. I could give a flip whether or not it is SAE - as long as it is consistent. That makes it apples to apples for me. It is only part of the package. I also do same gear acceleration runs and track testing, as well as data gathering (temps and pressures for instance).
Hope that helps!
Randy
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From: So Cal
Originally Posted by RandyBMC
I'd be happy to share my thoughts on why. The biggest reason is that it doesn't matter much to the bread and butter consumer. That leaves most in a quandry from a marketing standpoint, because if vendor Y is using BHP (like most do), and vendor X is using SAE, and both products are the same money, then Joe Customer is most likely going to buy the product with the higher number.
That is a fact I've seen in regard to marketing campaigns by many of the aftermarket vendors which has caused grief in my world. Posting realistic numbers is about all you can ask - trying to get everyone to use a standard that is lower in a number sense is going to be very difficult. You are not the average customer, in that you are aware of how to measure on a dyno, and the tricks that can be played with the numbers. Most aren't.
Which brings me to the last point - be happy with honest numbers. You can interpolate from BHP close enough to know if a vendor is fudging dyno numbers. Most agree that a 12% driveline loss is reasonable. That leaves us with as close to apples to apples comparison as you are going to see. For you, I will be sure to post numbers in SAE wheel once I start doing the testing Stateside...
Remember that my philosophy regarding the dyno is to have a useable tool. I could give a flip whether or not it is SAE - as long as it is consistent. That makes it apples to apples for me. It is only part of the package. I also do same gear acceleration runs and track testing, as well as data gathering (temps and pressures for instance).
Hope that helps!
Randy
That is a fact I've seen in regard to marketing campaigns by many of the aftermarket vendors which has caused grief in my world. Posting realistic numbers is about all you can ask - trying to get everyone to use a standard that is lower in a number sense is going to be very difficult. You are not the average customer, in that you are aware of how to measure on a dyno, and the tricks that can be played with the numbers. Most aren't.
Which brings me to the last point - be happy with honest numbers. You can interpolate from BHP close enough to know if a vendor is fudging dyno numbers. Most agree that a 12% driveline loss is reasonable. That leaves us with as close to apples to apples comparison as you are going to see. For you, I will be sure to post numbers in SAE wheel once I start doing the testing Stateside...
Remember that my philosophy regarding the dyno is to have a useable tool. I could give a flip whether or not it is SAE - as long as it is consistent. That makes it apples to apples for me. It is only part of the package. I also do same gear acceleration runs and track testing, as well as data gathering (temps and pressures for instance).
Hope that helps!
Randy
"The biggest reason is that it doesn't matter much to the bread and butter consumer. "
my response.... the bread and butter aren't buying the high end stuff... morons like myself are and they want the true numbers..
"That leaves most in a quandry from a marketing standpoint, because if vendor Y is using BHP (like most do), and vendor X is using SAE, and both products are the same money, then Joe Customer is most likely going to buy the product with the higher number."
I think it is your job as a vendor to EDUCATE the public so they get "real" info not "MARKETING". I sell securities for a living and if I sold them the way people sell parts on here I would be sued daily for false advertising. I have to explain in great detail to clients exactly what they are buying and what the truth is.. Let me tell you a quick story to prove my point. Back in 2000 at the height of the stock market I told new clients that the market was going back to 7500 on the dow and 1250 on the Naz. Almost all of them didn't want to do business with me because I told them something they didn't want to hear. I explained in great detail why it was going to do it. After the market dumped and went to where I said it would , most called me up and wanted to do business. They are now some of my most loyal clients. Why did they come back? Because I EDUCATED them on the stock market.
"Which brings me to the last point - be happy with honest numbers."
and my point is.... What are the HONEST numbers? I have seen so many claims on the net about HP numbers and they have been short of the mark. Some by a LONG SHOT. It should be painfully clear on the NAM site that quite a few people want a standardized reporting of data. We all know it can be manipulated. The truth will set everyone free and those that continue to fake data will lose out in the long run. jmho
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From: So Cal
Originally Posted by AlexN
Maybe we should get some RossTech and El Diablito Rojo approved stickers.
Andy,
I am still waiting for the 19% GIAC results! I have not seen anything on that yet.
El,
you went with the twin charge because you saw which data?
I guess you are still figuring out some problems with the setup to get more power.....so you pay and test it for the vendor. Therefore you might get a better deal.
Guys,
this is starting to get silly. The product just arrived in the States and you are already starting this whole testing and data stuff. Buy it and test it yourself.
You have to realise that at some point you bought something you believed in before the data was there.
Give Randy some time....and if you do not like the results then speak up.
Everytime something gets posted that is new that gives everybody more product to choose from gets the same old story.
Alex
Andy,
I am still waiting for the 19% GIAC results! I have not seen anything on that yet.
El,
you went with the twin charge because you saw which data?
I guess you are still figuring out some problems with the setup to get more power.....so you pay and test it for the vendor. Therefore you might get a better deal.
Guys,
this is starting to get silly. The product just arrived in the States and you are already starting this whole testing and data stuff. Buy it and test it yourself.
You have to realise that at some point you bought something you believed in before the data was there.
Give Randy some time....and if you do not like the results then speak up.
Everytime something gets posted that is new that gives everybody more product to choose from gets the same old story.
Alex
"you went with the twin charge because you saw which data?"
his dyno sheet which has been witnessed by numerous people on this very board and again in cali where it was done in front of 20-30 people.
why would I want to test something that produces less power? 282 is the crank hp not whp
again... the story always comes back to one thing... SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!
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From: Denver
Me -"The biggest reason is that it doesn't matter much to the bread and butter consumer. "
El -my response.... the bread and butter aren't buying the high end stuff... morons like myself are and they want the true numbers..
As a vendor who sells the high end stuff, I can tell you that you are the exception, not the rule.
Me -"That leaves most in a quandry from a marketing standpoint, because if vendor Y is using BHP (like most do), and vendor X is using SAE, and both products are the same money, then Joe Customer is most likely going to buy the product with the higher number."
El -"I think it is your job as a vendor to EDUCATE the public so they get "real" info not "MARKETING". I sell securities for a living and if I sold them the way people sell parts on here I would be sued daily for false advertising. I have to explain in great detail to clients exactly what they are buying and what the truth is.. Let me tell you a quick story to prove my point. Back in 2000 at the height of the stock market I told new clients that the market was going back to 7500 on the dow and 1250 on the Naz. Almost all of them didn't want to do business with me because I told them something they didn't want to hear. I explained in great detail why it was going to do it. After the market dumped and went to where I said it would , most called me up and wanted to do business. They are now some of my most loyal clients. Why did they come back? Because I EDUCATED them on the stock market."
I have done a lot of educating on everything from what really isn't necessary to how things work to installation guides. It is also my job to be certain I stay in business. One of the things I'm trying to educate you on is that there is not one Holy Grail of tuning. The dyno, and I've said it ad nauseum, is not the icon of all performance. I do my best to post truth, so I'm quite sure you would have difficulty in suing me for false advertising.
I am the only one even entertaining your obsession with SAE - I'm a good guy! I know the market, and I know the client base. I have over 1400 customers, and only a handful of them are looking for the info you are - and even those are satisfied with the test data in conglomeration.
Me -"Which brings me to the last point - be happy with honest numbers."
El -"and my point is.... What are the HONEST numbers? I have seen so many claims on the net about HP numbers and they have been short of the mark. Some by a LONG SHOT. It should be painfully clear on the NAM site that quite a few people want a standardized reporting of data. We all know it can be manipulated. The truth will set everyone free and those that continue to fake data will lose out in the long run. jmho"
It is painfully clear that you aren't seeing my points. There are just a few guys who even know what you are talking about. You can post anything you want - you can make a dyno read close to whatever you want - and you can keep a majority of problems hidden. The bottom line is you need to trust the vendor you work with. To date, I have had a huge success rate in that area. I am happy with that, and if you aren't, don't do business with me. I got a chance to listen to you at the Pulley Party at Steve's, and I hope you had a chance to listen to my tech talk while you were there. If you did, you know that I am familiar with the concepts, and that I know what I'm talking about, and that I'm honest.
Now, I told you I would post the research in SAE format once I have it all. If that isn't what you wanted, please tell me what it is that you do want so you will allow me to be happy about these exciting new products.
Can't we all just get along! :smile:
Randy
El -my response.... the bread and butter aren't buying the high end stuff... morons like myself are and they want the true numbers..
As a vendor who sells the high end stuff, I can tell you that you are the exception, not the rule.
Me -"That leaves most in a quandry from a marketing standpoint, because if vendor Y is using BHP (like most do), and vendor X is using SAE, and both products are the same money, then Joe Customer is most likely going to buy the product with the higher number."
El -"I think it is your job as a vendor to EDUCATE the public so they get "real" info not "MARKETING". I sell securities for a living and if I sold them the way people sell parts on here I would be sued daily for false advertising. I have to explain in great detail to clients exactly what they are buying and what the truth is.. Let me tell you a quick story to prove my point. Back in 2000 at the height of the stock market I told new clients that the market was going back to 7500 on the dow and 1250 on the Naz. Almost all of them didn't want to do business with me because I told them something they didn't want to hear. I explained in great detail why it was going to do it. After the market dumped and went to where I said it would , most called me up and wanted to do business. They are now some of my most loyal clients. Why did they come back? Because I EDUCATED them on the stock market."
I have done a lot of educating on everything from what really isn't necessary to how things work to installation guides. It is also my job to be certain I stay in business. One of the things I'm trying to educate you on is that there is not one Holy Grail of tuning. The dyno, and I've said it ad nauseum, is not the icon of all performance. I do my best to post truth, so I'm quite sure you would have difficulty in suing me for false advertising.
I am the only one even entertaining your obsession with SAE - I'm a good guy! I know the market, and I know the client base. I have over 1400 customers, and only a handful of them are looking for the info you are - and even those are satisfied with the test data in conglomeration.
Me -"Which brings me to the last point - be happy with honest numbers."
El -"and my point is.... What are the HONEST numbers? I have seen so many claims on the net about HP numbers and they have been short of the mark. Some by a LONG SHOT. It should be painfully clear on the NAM site that quite a few people want a standardized reporting of data. We all know it can be manipulated. The truth will set everyone free and those that continue to fake data will lose out in the long run. jmho"
It is painfully clear that you aren't seeing my points. There are just a few guys who even know what you are talking about. You can post anything you want - you can make a dyno read close to whatever you want - and you can keep a majority of problems hidden. The bottom line is you need to trust the vendor you work with. To date, I have had a huge success rate in that area. I am happy with that, and if you aren't, don't do business with me. I got a chance to listen to you at the Pulley Party at Steve's, and I hope you had a chance to listen to my tech talk while you were there. If you did, you know that I am familiar with the concepts, and that I know what I'm talking about, and that I'm honest.
Now, I told you I would post the research in SAE format once I have it all. If that isn't what you wanted, please tell me what it is that you do want so you will allow me to be happy about these exciting new products.
Can't we all just get along! :smile:
Randy
2nd Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: SF Bay area
Hey before you all get too happy, RMS IS CRAP
They have made crappy superchargers for BMWs in the past and everything they touch is nothing but problems. Countless mistakes in production, products heavily lacking quality, and overall shitty service.
You can read TONS of horror stories and the like at www.bimmerforums.com in the Forced Induction forum. Just run a search for RMS.
Now I don't usually bash companies but after reading the stories and seeing the proof, I have to add RMS to the BAN list along with BMP. BUYER BEWARE!!!!!
You can read TONS of horror stories and the like at www.bimmerforums.com in the Forced Induction forum. Just run a search for RMS.
Now I don't usually bash companies but after reading the stories and seeing the proof, I have to add RMS to the BAN list along with BMP. BUYER BEWARE!!!!!
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Hoboken, NJ
I understand that people might not like it or whatever. If you want to ruin somebody's day don't do it here. Just be happy for Randy because he is happy about his new product. I have loved NAM because everybody is always really friendly and awesome, don't make me change my mind....
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From: Denver
That's why it isn't going to be an RMS kit, but a Webb Motorsports kit with RMS parts...
I won't be selling it if it's crap, but the stuff I've received to date for the MINI looks great!
It is the same with many manufacturers. I've seen stuff that was incredible on Porsches, and crap on the MINI - and vice versa. I take each product one at a time.
Randy
I won't be selling it if it's crap, but the stuff I've received to date for the MINI looks great!
It is the same with many manufacturers. I've seen stuff that was incredible on Porsches, and crap on the MINI - and vice versa. I take each product one at a time.
Randy
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From: Denver
Originally Posted by minispilot
They have made crappy superchargers for BMWs in the past and everything they touch is nothing but problems. Countless mistakes in production, products heavily lacking quality, and overall shitty service.
You can read TONS of horror stories and the like at www.bimmerforums.com in the Forced Induction forum. Just run a search for RMS.
Now I don't usually bash companies but after reading the stories and seeing the proof, I have to add RMS to the BAN list along with BMP. BUYER BEWARE!!!!!
You can read TONS of horror stories and the like at www.bimmerforums.com in the Forced Induction forum. Just run a search for RMS.
Now I don't usually bash companies but after reading the stories and seeing the proof, I have to add RMS to the BAN list along with BMP. BUYER BEWARE!!!!!
Hope that helps!
Randy
Randy,
Sincerely, thank you for trying to set El straight here as it getting nauseating reading his narcissistic ramblings .
I would have to disagree with just about everything El claims in his last several post on this thread and he certainly does not speak for me. For some reason some members here start to feel like they are a god of sorts just because they get a lot of comments and questions on their cars. It gets to their heads I think.
All I can say is that when I need info on any Mini product I call, and will continue to call Randy. Don't think I can ever see myself calling El.
I'll take track tested over a freaking dyno any day. Ambitions of beating a Vett. at a stop light are not what I'm after.
Thanks for all you have invested Randy, time and money, to get the information that the majority of us are looking for.
Maybe someday when I have the knowledge and money that EL. has I can consider getting that high end stuff and I can be just like him. Wooopi!
Sincerely, thank you for trying to set El straight here as it getting nauseating reading his narcissistic ramblings .
I would have to disagree with just about everything El claims in his last several post on this thread and he certainly does not speak for me. For some reason some members here start to feel like they are a god of sorts just because they get a lot of comments and questions on their cars. It gets to their heads I think.
All I can say is that when I need info on any Mini product I call, and will continue to call Randy. Don't think I can ever see myself calling El.
I'll take track tested over a freaking dyno any day. Ambitions of beating a Vett. at a stop light are not what I'm after.
Thanks for all you have invested Randy, time and money, to get the information that the majority of us are looking for.
Maybe someday when I have the knowledge and money that EL. has I can consider getting that high end stuff and I can be just like him.
Wooopi!
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From: Denver
I appreciate it onasled! It has been a pleasure dealing with you.
El - in case you didn't know, onasled was being sarcastic - I know him and he has the knowledge and the money - I was laughing .
Randy
El - in case you didn't know, onasled was being sarcastic - I know him and he has the knowledge and the money - I was laughing
.Randy
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From: NY NY
my objection to the dyno plot is that it was presented soley for its large numerical result without a whit of content regarding conditions, any baselines or any other data from which to make a comparison. the marketing stategy is patently clear: Why should we care if its fake? we just want the big number.
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From: Denver
There is a baseline. It is hard to read because it is in a foreign language, but it has all of the conditions listed, as well as the baseline number.
Again, it is the info I have right now - give me a chance to get the unit installed here and tested.
Thanks!
Randy
Again, it is the info I have right now - give me a chance to get the unit installed here and tested.
Thanks!
Randy
