First I want congratulate Randy on this fab product line he picked up

Secondly, why is everyone comparing the RMS with the Twin charge?
As a road racer my self, I would never even consider using the twincharge
on the track, or even a hard charging canyon run. The heat load in the engine compartment is tremendous, with deleterious long term effects.

The linear power delivery of the Autorotor is fantastic, without the Turbo's hair trigger power delivery.Just imagine that Turbo kicking in just as you
balancing the car on a knife's edge at 100mph.....not good

Again the community should be ecstatic that "we" the Tuners are bringing in new exciting product lines, not just a bunch of rehashed crap and copy's..

Randy thank you for pushing the envelope, it's good for all of us

peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

www.m7tuning.com

 

you still coming to dyno day?

 

Peter,
what is deleterious?
anyway... no one is knocking the kit or comparing it to a twincharge... (well maybe you just did)
who is going 100mph in the canyon?
and what exactly is rehashed and crap?

anxiously awaiting

 

Randy,

Sounds exciting, keep up the GOOD WORK ...

 

How many languages do you speak, El? He mentioned the track - where I routinely test items at over 100MPH. I'm not sure about that last bit.

Thanks again for your support guys - I am really excited about the opportunities this kit will allow us to explore.

Stay tuned...

 

"You have two inlet lines and two outlet lines to separate intercooler chambers, pictured above. This theory was tested thoroughly on the track, and I'll put it through more here - alongside the GRS intercooler, the Alta intercooler and the FMIC"


I have confidence you will wring out the systems in comparative tests, but to test the "theory" above, you are going to have to show the two line unit is the reason for any improvements vs a single line otherwise equivalent unit.

I don't doubt the autorotor will perform, though. trouble is, you have a bundle of subsystems to verify for long term reliability in the Mini. like the electric water pump and variety of new plumbing connections, belt and tensioner re-routing, mechanical mounts, oil delivery, etc.

sounds like a full time development project, eh?

 

That is one of the nice things working with RMS - they also do track development. He won't sell a kit unless it has been on the track for a substantial period of time.

I have tested the one line set up, and it's where the data came from for improving the system. I agree that all things need to be identical, but I was more about improving the entire design, so we won't know exactly what the largest contributor was to the improvement, but we will know they work!

The pump is a great, and tested, unit - an OEM BMW pump that is used (as the car's water pump) in the 6 series.

I've done a ton of development to date, and it is one of the reasons I'm hard to get a hold of sometimes! It is my full time job!

Randy

 

In-line with what Peter shared, I too prefer the supercharging solution. Kenne Bell, says that with the 'Autorotor, boost is not a sole function of rpm, but of throttle position.' That is sweet!

Here's more from the guy, and while it pertains to his products, the translation to Randy's offering is highly relevant:

MORE HORSEPOWER - 40-100% + increase, depending on the kit, associated components and other engine modifications. Boosts as high as 20 psi for racing-only applications. Perhaps most important is the additional horsepower and torque throughout the rpm range that your engine realizes from the Kenne Bell "instant boost" (no "supercharger lag" or waiting for rpm to build up and develop boost). Some kits include a SWITCH CHIP®, OPTIMODULE or OPTIMIZER ll™ to optimize fuel, spark and transmission operation.

COMPONENTS - Unlike the lower cost centrifugal "blow through" (blows through the stock upper intake manifold via a rubber hose), the Kenne Bell "pull through" design kits include up to two (2) new cast aluminum low restriction inlet manifolds. The supercharger case itself is billet extruded aluminum. So quite often our kits cost a little more.

TORQUE & DRIVEABILITY - Maximum mid-range and low-end torque. No one can touch us in this area. "Instant maximum boost" means instantly more torque and horsepower when you punch it at any rpm above 2000 (even between 500 and 2000 rpm). Now we all know that boost makes torque and horsepower. Therefore, the higher the boost at any engine rpm, the greater the engine output i.e. torque and HP. Torque and horsepower is what makes driving fun. It slams you back in the seat, spins the tires, accelerates the vehicle faster up hills and for passing etc. This is what you pay for. The trick is to get as much torque - and horsepower - throughout the rpm band at both high and low engine rpm. No one has a fatter, flatter torque curve. That's what a twin screw compressor supercharger does for you. It's like riding with a compressed air bottle. Hit the throttle and the stored up compressed air blows maximum boost charge into the engine. The amount of air and boost will depend on how far you depress the accelerator and the engine demand. No "supercharger lag" here. Unlike others that depend on rpm for boost (approx. 1-1.5 psi of boost per 1000 rpm), there's no waiting for the rpm to build with the Kenne Bell supercharger. Just get ready. It develops maximum boost and performance at 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 or 6000. That is the feeling worth paying for. Remember, you can't enjoy maximum horsepower at any rpm and vehicle speed without maximum boost.

CRUISE - We can cruise our company test vehicles down the freeway in any gear at 2000, 3000, 4000 or 5000 rpm without getting into boost and heating up the engine and burning up excess fuel. Again, boost in the Kenne Bell Autorotor is not a sole function of rpm, but of throttle position.
=================

Glad you are making this happen Randy!

 

Of course bro.

 

Ok Cliffs Note for this thread:


Webb Motorsport (One of BEST MINI tuners) and RMS have announced development of cool new product.


nay sayers cry Wolf.


Webb Motorsport shows fangs and bites..... hard.


nay sayers say "Bring it wolfie"


Webb Motorsport bites harder


M7 come in with the 1-2 combination, siding with Webb and brawl nearly gets out of control.


Meanwhile hecklers on the sideline start shouting remarks, but withdraw them rapidly

... fight still in progress.

i suggest we throw in some girls, and mud.

 

Yes I know I'm swedish...and I'm proud of it

You know, I should not have to do this to an English speaking crowd.

Deleterious

del-e-te-ri-ous 1. injurious to health; 2. hurtful; harmful; destroyer


re-hash 1. old material;


cop-y 1. imitation; 2. reproduction 3. imitation of something


peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

European ph# 01144-207-993-4898 (London)

www.m7tuning.com

 

Peter,
thanks for that wonderful rendition of Websters
Please answer what was crap and what is the copying part?
copying of supercharger....????

 

El don't be dense..this had nothing to do with your Turbo, but a reflection
on the stagnant state of affairs when it comes to new fresh ideas...

peter

 

Peter...

using your own words::
it looks to me you brought the twincharge into this and I am just pointing it out to you. I am not quite as dense as I appear.

"Secondly, why is everyone comparing the RMS with the Twin charge?
As a road racer my self, I would never even consider using the twincharge
on the track, or even a hard charging canyon run. The heat load in the engine compartment is tremendous, with deleterious long term effects.

The linear power delivery of the Autorotor is fantastic, without the Turbo's hair trigger power delivery.Just imagine that Turbo kicking in just as you
balancing the car on a knife's edge at 100mph.....not good"

 

for the bread and butter boys:

for M7: the entire topic is a re-hash, copy, of the M7 blower project anyway that was hinted at over a year ago, and that was a re-hash, copy of Kenne Bell's projects, etc. but in reality, there is nothing new in car development anyway. the twincharger was the most unique, and in terms of least mods to a stock car, nothing compares for the hp gain and nothing has put out anywhere near as much hp. the all turbo and autorotor are definitely going to be power contenders.

for Randy: you obviously wanted to drop the biggest hp number you could, its in your first post, but for a guy who claims dynos are only for tuning where before and after results are what are useful, you went for the bling. no way can that bit of dyno plot stand on its own. Nothing new there, right? weren't there huge dyno claims from the Portland Unichip runs and the runs in Yarrow?

for Randy: a large part of my interest in engines is to figure our exactly why things work so I am going to dig into that twin mass idea, the benefits of which are not at all explained.

for El: what makes you think veracity is a component in these discussions? Randy has many supporters who follow his lead on faith (not undeserved), but that isn't the same thing. Hp claims for vendors are a marketing tool, bragging tool, advertising hook, and lastly, (leastly) a tuning tool.

car building is the wild west, dyno claims are misused and the only, repeat, only real measure of power is the 1/4 mile dragstrip. nobody has beaten Jeff's 13.1 time as far as I have seen, and that was two seasons ago.

 

Don't want to speak for anyone here, though I may have missed it, I'm not so sure Randy backed any Dyno runs at Yarrow's. Any postings made about those runs were made by the owners, me being one.
Unfortunatly I don't remember that there were any "huge" claims made

 

I'm an idiot when the subject turns to engines. Dunno why, I just am. It was a bit of a stretch for me to show my naivete here in a number of posts -I was looking for a way to fit in and learn. The overly sensitive nature of some of the replys, present and past, is becoming habbitual. I've even been drawn into the fire once or twice. Who am I?

 

May I join?

 

I'm sure Randy will wring it out and give us the results; my hesitation is when he says this (which I agree with completely):

"Dynapacks usually use a 13-15% loss on the MINI. Don't get too hung up on the numbers - they are only an indicator. Dyno numbers are all over the map depending on the baseline, the syno, the conditions, the operator, etc.

We don't really know the driveline loss for each dyno, and we would have to take an engine on a stand dyno, then put it in the car, and run that same car on all of the different dynos to figure it out.

Since what we use the dyno for is to know if we are going in the right direction, and how well that direction works, nobody has bothered to figure out what the true driveline loss is for each dyno manufacturer.

I do need to figure out something with his plot though - it ends at 6650 or so rather than going to 6950 RPM. That would certainly give him a bit more power. It could just be the way the software on the dyno was set up though.

Again, with dyno's the control of the scientific method is absolutely critical, and then we are looking for deltas from baselines."

but then he drags out big hp claims before he has the method in the last sentence above in hand.

how can you have it both ways?

 

Looks like about 168 kW at the wheels, or around 229 whp, which means that plot uses a roughly 19% driveline loss.

 

229whp for just replacing that intercooler?

 

Oop! I didn't even look at the numbers on that plot, simply the graph. From the numbers they posted, it's 21%+ driveline loss.

 

it's a different supercharger set up .....

 

jlm,

I understand what you are saying, but please, I didn't go for the bling. The most common question is how much power will it make. I have several dyno runs from RMS, and I used one of them, end of story. I didn't hype the run, I didn't fake the run, I didn't pick the biggest run.

You quoted my take on dynos - I've dyno'ed everywhere with just about all of the dynos on the market, and I've always been as honest as I know about the numbers. When questioned about the Unichip runs on a Dastek, I told you that the numbers were to be used for deltas because the dyno reads a bit high. I never posted any runs from Yarrow's, but they were all reasonable - I think the car with all of the mods was around 230HP.

I get as excited as the next guy (probably more so, because if I didn't have passion about this stuff, I certainly wouldn't put up with it) from numbers, so sure - I got excited about the possibilites of this kit. I posted what I think the potential is for it, and I stand by it. This kit will make the power - physics can't be argued with.

There are folks out there who have said this kit will make 300hp - I have stuck with the numbers. I know what it will take to get to 275HP and beyond, and I have said it would cost big bucks to do it right. I'd love to see someone who has gotten that kind of power without having to address the gearbox or the ECU or any number of other components. If you look at the dyno run again, the kit is making 210KW, which is a far cry from 229HP.

I am one of the few tuners who actually posts what's going on with development, and anyone can obviously see why not many tuners do. It gets very old for me to continually fight with a few select members of the board, and it ruins the information for most folks to see the bickering. I try to provide as much data as possible, and right now, that is the RMS dyno sheets for HP numbers.

There are folks on the board that say - "show me the numbers" but then when you do, the numbers aren't good enough! Well, I will be sure to do as many "numbers" as I can, as a way to stick it to you folks who are naysayers.

I don't like to fight by nature - I am a pretty easy going guy. I'm done with all of the fighting. I'd be happy to answer any questions about the product.

Hope that helps!
Randy

 

Good Info. Randy, page me ASAP,

I'll call you right back to discuss my "real-world" testing of Red Fury for the big Endurance Race (513)269-4679