Drivetrain (Cooper S) MINI Cooper S (R56) intakes, exhausts, pulleys, headers, throttle bodies, and any other modifications to the Cooper S drivetrain.

Turbo Talk (go big or go home?)

  #1  
Old 02-26-2019, 11:03 AM
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Turbo Talk (go big or go home?)

So I’m finally at that point where I think a new turbo may be in my future.

I currently have a 2013 R56S modded as follows:

Manic Stage 2 on map C (I fuel it with 10 gallons of 93 and 4 gallons of E85, so E31ish)

K&N Apollo with bulkhead cut out (Basically a DoS at less than half the cost)

NGK (1422) ILKR8E6

Wagner Competition FMIC (eBay clone)

NM hard charge and discharge pipes

AEM WMI injection (50/50 mix, 250cc nozzle in charge pipe)

mQubed Catless Downpipe

BSH lower engine mount

Removed secondary cat and muffler.

I am replacing the AEM with a 4 nozzle direct port injection in the intake runners with an additional nozzle in the charge pipe.

Ireland Engineering “Street/Track” adjustable camber plates, rear control arms, sway bar, adjustable droplinks (E30 M3, I’m an M car now, right?) and stainless brake lines

KWv2 Coilovers

JCW BBK

Madness LCA bushings


Now that we have that out of the way, I’m looking for opinions on turbo options. I’m torn between the MINI JCW turbo (53039880146) and JMTC S42. I’m sure either one will require a reflash or new tune, however I think that the JCW would be plug and play with Manic stage 2. The S42 would require an RPM Power Tune because Manic stage 3 is NLA. The car is one of my daily’s, but it is in transition to be more of a track toy. Lots of HPDE events and eventually time attack are in her future. I don’t autoX and have no plans to start.

I’ve gotten good feedback on the JMTC S42, but for some reason I am really leaning toward the JCW. What say you, internet?
 

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  #2  
Old 02-26-2019, 02:14 PM
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Manic does Stage 3 tunes again, FYI. I got one literally a month ago.

I have Mario's 43/56 Turbo. I love it. Basically zero lag (feels like stock turbo when spooling) and it will hold 22.5 psi through the whole rev range on my Stage 3 tune. Your stock MCS turbo tops out at around 20 psi (will make more but not efficiently) and the JCW turbo will top out around 21 psi. The increased boost plus my meth injection puts me somewhere in the 270 whp range by my best guess.

Keep in mind you will likely need to swap out the clutch as well if you go for Stage 3. I have a friend that went for the S42 and RPM Stage 3 and is on the stock clutch, he's basically just waiting for it to explode and doesn't get on it too hard.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:33 PM
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Yeah, map C has me hitting 21.5 PSI. I really don't think I need to push more PSI, but I'd like to have more pull at the top. I feel like she starts to run out of breath at the top in 5th and 6th.

I'm still on the stock clutch with 94000 miles. I guess that is another option, OS Giken STR and a Wavetrac LSD.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:00 PM
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That's what I was talking about with efficiency. A bigger turbo will move more air up at the top of the rev range than the stock one, so your power band won't die off up at the top.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:42 PM
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I have the JMTC 40mm turbo that is essentially a JCW turbo. Although I have been told that JMTC turbos run a little larger than the spec, I cannot confirm or deny that. What I can say is that I have also spent some time in another mini very similar to mine with the same tune that I put a 42mm in. They are both a big improvement over the stock turbo. Mine seems to spool just a touch sooner, the 42 pulled hard all the way to the redline. All in all they feel pretty similar, but the 42 has a bit more on top. I think you would be happy with either one.
the 40mm is supposed to be “plug and play” but tuning for it makes a huge difference. I drove it for a few months with the factory tune and it was fine, but really came alive with the stage 3 tune
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:16 PM
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MrGrumpy I appreciate the feedback.

From what I am seeing, the JCW (PN: 5303 988 0146) is a 41mm. Any experience going from stage 2 to 3?

Another reason I'm on the fence because it's a lot of money for a potentially marginal performance gain.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:27 PM
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Yeah, it’s hard to say. I’ve mostly seen the JCW listed at 40mm, but also 40.5, 41, and 41.5 lol. Who knows? But it’s supposed to be the JCW equivalent. The factory turbo on Gen 2 is 37mm.
I don’t have any experience going from stage 2 to 3 myself. I went from the stock map to stage 3. So it was a huge difference. The friend went from stage 2 Manic to stage 3 RPM with the turbo upgrade, and it was definitely a noticeable difference, but the boost curve is different between the two tunes as well, so it’s tough to judge it. The boost is a lot more progressive with RPM
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:06 PM
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When u said BIG, I was thinking about gtx28 Or so����*♂️
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ludopo View Post
When u said BIG, I was thinking about gtx28 Or so����*♂️
LOL, hence the question mark.

I'm interested in where reliability, usable power and size intersect.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by scotty_r56s View Post
LOL, hence the question mark.

I'm interested in where reliability, usable power and size intersect.

i have a GTX2867 gen2, using it as a daily, and it’s really comfortable.
have been running one year on stock Internals with a custom tune, when I switched to forged internals, pistons were like new ( no wear on them, because of knocking or whatever)
and that power... DAMN !
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by scotty_r56s View Post
LOL, hence the question mark.

I'm interested in where reliability, usable power and size intersect.
There are dudes running 47mm turbos on stock internals without methanol and haven't blown up yet. I wouldn't trust it on my own car, which is why I went relatively small and run a 93 octane map with 100% methanol to completely avoid any chance of detonation from AFR/timing related issues. If my engine blows up, it's almost definitely going to be from too much cylinder pressure bending a rod. I'm not super concerned about that though.

I also built my car for mountain roads and cornering, so not having to wait for boost was important for me as well. Mario said a lot of autocross guys liked the 43mm, and I also heard some people having issues with turbo lag on the 47mm with the Manic tune. It was basically a no brainer for me.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:52 PM
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Thank you for the replies.

I guess I should clarify what I mean when I say "reliability". I'm looking for a turbo that can run flatout for multiple 20-30 minute sessions on a road course during a race weekend. Specifically, Road Atlanta, Carolina Motorsports Park, Roebling Road and Barber Motorsports Park. Currently, the stock S turbo with Manic stage 2 and WMI works for me until I get a long straight like between turn 7 and 10a at Road Atlanta. When pushed that hard, it feels like it is left wanting at top end. As much as I want to go with JMTC, I don't know that it would hold up to that kind of abuse.

Realistically, I probably need to drop Manic and get dyno tuned locally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

After all, it is a 1.6l. A very small, angry motor.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:55 PM
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thebombardier You went from stage 2 to stage 3, right?

Any thoughts on that? Was it noticeable? Would you do it again?
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by scotty_r56s View Post
Thank you for the replies.

I guess I should clarify what I mean when I say "reliability". I'm looking for a turbo that can run flatout for multiple 20-30 minute sessions on a road course during a race weekend. Specifically, Road Atlanta, Carolina Motorsports Park, Roebling Road and Barber Motorsports Park. Currently, the stock S turbo with Manic stage 2 and WMI works for me until I get a long straight like between turn 7 and 10a at Road Atlanta. When pushed that hard, it feels like it is left wanting at top end. As much as I want to go with JMTC, I don't know that it would hold up to that kind of abuse.

Realistically, I probably need to drop Manic and get dyno tuned locally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

After all, it is a 1.6l. A very small, angry motor.
JMTC builds their turbos from OEM housings and internals, afaik they are just putting new impellers on the turbine and exhaust sides. I wouldn't be concerned about reliability with them.

Good luck getting a dyno tune, I don't know anyone besides Manic and RPM that has actually cracked the N18 ECU.

I did go from Stage 2 to Stage 3 but it was a little weird for me. I swapped the turbo while stage 2 and was still playing with the wastegate adjustment after I got retuned to stage 3, so it wasn't an instant change. Overall I do notice a big difference though. Gears 1 and 2 are essentially worthless at WOT now, I honestly need an LSD. It definitely pulls harder in all gears but not quite as much as I was expecting, the biggest difference is that it will pull just as hard at 2-3k RPM or 6-7k RPM. There are zero dead spots.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 06:33 PM
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Cool. Thanks.

Re: tuning, I feel like I've been waiting for that RMW standalone forever lol
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by scotty_r56s View Post
Thank you for the replies.

I guess I should clarify what I mean when I say "reliability". I'm looking for a turbo that can run flatout for multiple 20-30 minute sessions on a road course during a race weekend. Specifically, Road Atlanta, Carolina Motorsports Park, Roebling Road and Barber Motorsports Park. Currently, the stock S turbo with Manic stage 2 and WMI works for me until I get a long straight like between turn 7 and 10a at Road Atlanta. When pushed that hard, it feels like it is left wanting at top end. As much as I want to go with JMTC, I don't know that it would hold up to that kind of abuse.

Realistically, I probably need to drop Manic and get dyno tuned locally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

After all, it is a 1.6l. A very small, angry motor.
Originally Posted by scotty_r56s View Post
Cool. Thanks.

Re: tuning, I feel like I've been waiting for that RMW standalone forever lol
Don't hold your breath. Jan seems to only like investing time and money in R53s.

Allegedly RPM is working on a remote tuning module for the N18. Dunno if that means they will be able to do remote dyno tuning or not but at the very least you can do a flash tune at home without having to mail your ECU out.
 
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Old 02-27-2019, 09:21 AM
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When we say big turbos in MINI land we talk about K03 or ~K04 the size, because MINIs stock turbo is so small compared to the turbo industry. Stock turbo do have dual scroll so they tend to have good pickup and less lag.

Mr Grumpy has a great assessment. With a tune, things come alive.

JMTC has some good stuff and fits under the engine bay, lots of aftermarket off the shelf much bigger turbos you are going to have to mod the engine bay or tuck everything. I have seen some huge turbos on MINI that people had to cut the U brace or move everything around.

Ludopo build here which is pretty cool with his turbo and fit pretty good: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...artinique.html
 
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Old 02-27-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by thebombardier View Post
Don't hold your breath. Jan seems to only like investing time and money in R53s.

Allegedly RPM is working on a remote tuning module for the N18. Dunno if that means they will be able to do remote dyno tuning or not but at the very least you can do a flash tune at home without having to mail your ECU out.
You would be 100% incorrect, I'm the only one actually developing proper fixes for fueling, flex fuel and engine control. It will be done correctly, (not adding port injection) This is a costly and needed approach to making safe hp on a high hp Mini. I will never cut corners on this, as you can see on our 1st gen I have built complete full fuel systems to support 1200 hp..... We will never push a tune on people that exceed the map sensors ability to calculate correct spark/fueling , I've been waiting for the correct approach to doing it. The time has come now to finish up the latest greatest parts for Gen 2 and Gen 3 engines. I can't count the number of blown motors by these "tunes" and it's shameful. I will not be a part of it.
Dimsport has had the N18 write through the OBDII for awhile now

We do however sell an upgraded borg warner which is 40hp ABOVE the JCW turbo and with factory reliability. We have not seen that type of reliability with the other turbos.
 
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Old 02-27-2019, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Revolution Motor Works View Post
You would be 100% incorrect, I'm the only one actually developing proper fixes for fueling, flex fuel and engine control. It will be done correctly, (not adding port injection) This is a costly and needed approach to making safe hp on a high hp Mini. I will never cut corners on this, as you can see on our 1st gen I have built complete full fuel systems to support 1200 hp..... We will never push a tune on people that exceed the map sensors ability to calculate correct spark/fueling , I've been waiting for the correct approach to doing it. The time has come now to finish up the latest greatest parts for Gen 2 and Gen 3 engines. I can't count the number of blown motors by these "tunes" and it's shameful. I will not be a part of it.
Dimsport has had the N18 write through the OBDII for awhile now

We do however sell an upgraded borg warner which is 40hp ABOVE the JCW turbo and with factory reliability. We have not seen that type of reliability with the other turbos.
Jan, thank you for weighing in on this. I'd like to hear more about your turbo.
 
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Old 02-27-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by scotty_r56s View Post
Jan, thank you for weighing in on this. I'd like to hear more about your turbo.
These are made in Germany and can take some time to get here. They are a fantastic upgrade turbo that will not cause issues. It's the only turbo we sell that is a direct bolt on. You get what you pay for.

BorgWarner's K03-2074 turbocharger is engineered to be a reliable and high-performance bolt on upgrade turbo for the 2006+ Mini JCW (adds 40+hp)

Mini John Cooper Works upgrade from BorgWarner AirWerks features
  • High temperature alloy turbine housing
  • Extended tip compressor wheel
  • Twin scroll turbine housing
  • Water cooled bearing housing


Using a high-flow twin scroll turbine housing combined with BW's extended tip compressor wheel design - this turbocharger delivers early spool and outstanding boost response with torque and power gains across the powerband. Full-Race recommends the addition of an aftermarket exhaust system to compliment this turbo, although that is not required for the installation.
 
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Old 02-28-2019, 05:53 AM
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You already know my opinions on this matter from our convo's on instagram messenger. For the money you wont be disappointed with a JMTC S42. Theyre a 46/58 compressor but the turbine remains smaller than the GTD47 for that "quick spool" I have been able to hit full 23.5 psi by 3300-3400rpm. You'll want to keep it around 21.5psi while your on your stock internals as your motor will make around 255-260whp and upwards of 300tq to the wheels....so thats right about where the limits of the stock internals are. I do have a buddy running 23-24psi like I was and his motor is still going but he had the benefits of WMI to keep knock down and cool the cylinders. Still....you never know what might happen when youre on the edge of the limits. with 255whp and 300tq you're gonna have enough power to blow the tires off the car down low but the torque steer will still be manageable.
 
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Old 02-28-2019, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by thebombardier View Post
JMTC builds their turbos from OEM housings and internals, afaik they are just putting new impellers on the turbine and exhaust sides. I wouldn't be concerned about reliability with them.

Good luck getting a dyno tune, I don't know anyone besides Manic and RPM that has actually cracked the N18 ECU.

I did go from Stage 2 to Stage 3 but it was a little weird for me. I swapped the turbo while stage 2 and was still playing with the wastegate adjustment after I got retuned to stage 3, so it wasn't an instant change. Overall I do notice a big difference though. Gears 1 and 2 are essentially worthless at WOT now, I honestly need an LSD. It definitely pulls harder in all gears but not quite as much as I was expecting, the biggest difference is that it will pull just as hard at 2-3k RPM or 6-7k RPM. There are zero dead spots.
I agree. I had my S42 put on while I was still stage 2 Manic and the jump in power was huge at that point alone since the turbo was now holding 21.5psi across the rev range instead of dying off. I had my ECu flashed to RPM stage 3 about a week later and there didnt seem to be a ton of difference but my Dyno did show that Manic Stage 2 @ 22-23PSI on Map C with the S42 made 255whp and 295tq. Rpm Stage 3 @21psi made the same power but up top it had about a 15-20whp gain fromabout 5k rpm to redline over Manic as well. Once my motor is done being built and is broken in, I'm going to do a Dyno of the S42 @23-24psi RPM Stage 3 with 100 octane and see what it makes.
 
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Old 02-28-2019, 06:02 AM
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Mike, I definitely appreciate your real world experience with this set up. That S42 looks so tempting.
 
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:07 AM
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Is anyone running the airwerks turbo? There for sale for like 650. Ive been lookin at the jcw and jmtc jcw turbo. But for the price i figure id ask if neone has actual expierence with this specific turbo as i do not understand the differences between this and a jcw turbo. Thanks
 
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:12 AM
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https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Sit...5303_988_0146/
This turbo? For that price you have I dont know if its true borg warner, Is it used or new the price you are finding?
 
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