Vendor bashing vendors What's going on here? Is this really necessary?

 

the implication from max is that M7 provided the specs to the mfg and that then the product showed up on ebay.

I am questioning that provenance, but willing to be proven wrong. even so, if the mfg can market them for $40, what do you think M7 is paying for them? any wonder why mini parts are so friggin expensive?

i'm not selling anything here, just commenting on part pricing. If you think my opinion is slanted because I'm listed as a vendor, ain't so. It's slanted because i buy mini parts for my rig just like everyone else.

 

Hi everyone....

Let me chime in on this "problem" that some of you have with our pricing of this product.


I would say that the M7 Catch Can is as nice or nicer then competing products
on the market, and the pricing reflects the value of the Catch Can.

The product comes with excellent easy to decipher instructions, all the tubing
and connectors for a sucessfull installation, and a life time warranty for
all the associated parts etc.

The Ebay can has been sold at a price that the manufacturer of the can
strongly disagrees with, and henceforth stopped any further deliveries to
the ebay seller....

We do appreciate all the customers who have stepped up to the purchase
of our awesome Oil Catch Can.....


PS. For being a vendor you have very little knowledge in the cost of running a business. making a profit/time for tech help at any time of the day etc.

Sincerely

Peter horvath
Team M7
562-712-3270

 

Yes, but with all due respect JLM, why take it out on M7? Perrin's can for the Mini is just as expensive too. Everything for the Mini is expensive due to it's newness and the limited market for it. Look at the ECU mods! Nearly a thousand for anyone of the Unichip, Powerchip, Evo, etc.. Heck, I had to bend over just so I can have the "only" CF mirror available for the Mini made by Craftsquare (anyone else have a set? we could form our own club ). But that's not their fault, don't you think? I agree one could save the alledged "300%" markup you're referring to by taking on the challenge of modifying/assembling the necessary parts off of Ebay (I've done that sort of thing), but I bet most Mini owners are not willing to take on that task and are more comfortable dealing with guaranteed "plug and play". I paid over a thousand for the first gen Alta TMIC knowing the prices would come down. Now they have the second gen at around $800. That still doesn't compare to the $200 intercooler for Hondas simply because of the greater number of Honda customers. In a couple of years when the Minis hit the used car market in great numbers, we'll all be sorry because that's when the cheap ***** will hit the fan. I'll miss these days

 

BS?
Fact/ We include far superior hoses and connectors
Fact/ We include instructions and support.
Fact/ There have been No issues reported with our catch can.
Fact/The differance in price is LESS than $ 90

Frankly the only BS I am seeing is " vendor to vendor "
P.S thanks for the bump and have a happy holiday
Randy
www.m7tuning.com

 

I'm going to say a few words, then leave to enjoy family and friends...

Amongst our many vendors, us MINI folks have had only one oil catch can from which to choose, until recently. Not that this choice was a bad one, but several of us tried devising our own system, often with complications or issues...

M7 introduces another OCC option to the MINI community. It is virtually the same price as the other one, and after reading this and other related threads, it seems to actually be more desirable (the can itself and hoses to and from it), not to mention aesthetics.

With regard to the eBay comparison, all I can say that it's eBay! Of course it's cheaper, and in this case for a reason. As mentioned earlier, the M7 can is a bit smaller (a better fit for us), and it is pre-assembled. Peter sources some sturdy Goodyear lines, and also includes some specific fittings for the MINI application, including grommets and T's. It includes detailed instructions for a MINI install, and telephone support, if needed.

While some might see the eBay route as viable, others will not; they will see it as an incomplete solution, or one that is not so desirable. Actually, I'm in need of a new floor jack now, and after checking eBay, I've decided to pick one up eslewhere, locally, even though the one on eBay is a fair amount less. The comparison for many folks on these OCC's will be between these two provided by MINI vendors as this is more of an apples-to-apples comparison.

Everyone, a Merry Christmas!

 

Way to go Peter. I just bought one of M& OCC and can't wait to get it in. After talking with Peter, I know customer service and quality are his top priorities. I don't know him personally, so this is a customer based comment/praise. I know and believe if you buy from M7 your are getting what you pay for. So whom every bashes M7 and is looking for the cheap way out with a company that doesn't give a dam about the product and is not specifically designned for the car and just wants money you will see your results in the long run and your face will look like this --> .

This is the same with ALta as well....quality.

ZM
-------------------------------------
'05 EB/W - Don't worry about my mods, just worry about if you can keep up with me...

 

ohh I forgot....

Ha nu en riktigt trevlig julhelg.. From Team M7

Peter & Randy
Team M7

 

the e-bay can sells for $33 +s&h, the M7 for $129 +s&h..
At least Alta is having their own design made and has participated in the on-line discussions which have been very informative

I do have a clue or two about running a business. Your model indicates that re-badging a product and adding $5 of hose, etc, must also add on overhead of $80, over twice the original part cost. Do you apply this model to everything you sell? If you need to provide that much aftersales support I would be suspicious of the detailed instructions you supply.

your welcome for the bump

the e-bay can comes with the body assembled, (except that you need to thread in the hose connectors and sight glass fittings), nylon re-inforced Tygon hose (high quality), a stainless steel mounting bracket and hose clamps.
apparantly there is a third party, the manufacturer, who wholesales to both for less than $33 or the e-bay unit is being sold at a loss.


here is a freebie for either can: take off the can top, force a 3" long piece of tygon hose into one of the tube adapters so that the incoming flow will be directed to the can bottom. fill up the can with a stainless steel scrubby ($0.69) and put the lid on. this will give you better trapping action with incoming flow going to the bottom, condensing on the scrubby, and oil-free vapor exiting from the top.

 

Hey...thought that was my little secret That's just what I did with the Alta OCC

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE

 

What is the M7 Inlet size? 9 or 15 mm?

 

Hi JLM,

3x markup for what is essentially a "pass through" product is a bit high, but not aggressively so. This is a pretty standard retail target. You are correct that this product doesn't have the value added content that typically justifies a 3x markup, but what they hay.....

The pretty girl won't say yes to a dance if you don't ask!

What's interesting here is that there was a leak in the supply chain. If most retail outlets had to compete against close to no overhead sales channels from the wholesale market, most of the retailers we know are familiar with would no longer be here. So I wonder what will happen next....

At the company I work for (MKS Instruments), this is an issue with no solution. We have to charge as much margin as we can (I once had a simple power cord sold for $100. We told the buyer that the overhead on small orders kills us, and it does, the buyer bought it, because of the cost of certifying an alternate supplier for a part!) so as not to dilute margin and have some analyst tank our stock. What I find crazy here is that pass through and value added should be different line items in financial reports, but they're not. I'm not sure M7 is yet at the size where this is a real issue, but it's there everywhere. Mabye when they go public

Personally, I'd have been happy with buying from M7 at about $75. I've found a slick location for the can, but it will take an hour or two to mount it up.

What is somewhat sad is that no one has added the different lenght input tube, or baffling as a stock item. That was a simple and cheap way to provide a functional description to justify the added value, and it wasn't done.

I'd guess that sometime we'll see the M7 price drop, or the eBay guy go away, or someone else step in with a Mini-dimensioned kit at about $50 that looks good and is dimensionally stable. Seen what's been going on in the Mini header world?

Anyway, I think everyone can see that M7 may have been a bit aggressive in the pricing.... At least I think everyone can see that. But to be fair, if I were a $300/hr lawyer, the M7 would still be a bargain!

Just a dollars worth of my two cents......

Matt

 

found this to be interesting:

http://www.theoldone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6641

 

That site req's a pw !

 

I don't understand what all the debate is over a few dollars. I would rather spend my money with a reputable NAM sponsor and buy a product of known quality.

 

First thing I would like to say is thanks jlm for sharing that great info find!
Please keep posting, some of us are interested in learning from others.
More comments to follow...............

 

My track experience with the Alta CC.

To date I have felt good about my Alta CC as I check my IC often and have always found it to be squeaky clean of any oil residue. It is hooked up via Alta’s directions. Well I tracked the car last week and when I got it home proceeded to do the after track day maintenance; checking spark plugs, changing oil and just generally checking things out. Notice a good amount of water, about two tea spoons, in the CC, and very little oil. I then noticed that the IC had a film of oil throughout the inside. Seems the Alta CC failed to do it's job while under lots'a high RPMs.

Gas mileage, for those who have not tracked their MCS yet, went to 7mpg.

 

I can add a bit of info about the suitability of silicone rubber and polycarbonate as materials for catch can construction. First of all, oil is a mostly a collection of short aliphatic hydrocarbon molecules, but also contains a small amount of anti-sludge ingredients and high molecular weight hyrdocarbon elastomer. The anti-sludge ingredients are generally proprietary to each oil manufacturer, but often consist of surfactants and strongly basic molecules like amines. The basicity helps counter the tendency of oil to become acidic with time, as it breaks down and oxidizes. The hydrocarbon elastomer is there to provide the "multi-weight" protection: flow at low temp combined with lubrication at high temp. It has no effect on the silicone or polycarbonate, so forget about it.

Neither silicone rubber nor polycarbonate will degrade or crack in the presence of the small aliphatic hrdocarbon molecules that make up the bulk of the oil. A typical 70 shore A silicone rubber will, however, absorb about 30% of its weight in oil at about 200 C. The absorption is the reason the oil can bleed thru silicone. The rubber becomes softer due to the oil absorption, but does not actually degrade UNLESS the oil is old and acidified. In this case, the Si-O linkages in the backbone break apart, and the rubber loses all its strength. I've seen silicone rubber that can be spread like peanut butter after 1 week in oil exposed to air continuously at 200 C. The "quality" of the silicone has nothing to do with this -- it is intrinsic to the material. Most likely, the catch can & hoses will never get hot enough for the acid catalyzed degradation to be a real problem, though, and I know all MINI owners change their oil frequently.

I would be a bit more worried about the polycarbonate, which is rather famous for cracking under a combination of mechanical and chemical stress. The aliphatic hydrocarbon portion of the oil is no problem for polycarbonate, but the surfactants could eventually lead to stress cracking. PC is also very sensitive to aromatic hydrocarbons, which could accumulate in the oil from engine combustion products (cylinder blow-by). If the catch can were not under mechanical stress due to vacuum, it would probably be OK, but as it is I would keep a close eye on it. Polycarbonate also undergoes a proces known as "physical aging" in which it changes from a tough, ductile plastic to one that is brittle and notch sensitive. The heat from the engine bay will accelerate this.

 

But he never references supercharged engines in that writeup.

Turbos blow through the throttle body and intake. With our superchargers, we can put a vacuum pickup after the throttle body but before the supercharger and thus stay under vacuum the whole time, rather than being pressurized.

I can't really identify where that fact fits into the Old One's writeup...

 

"Turbo's blow through the throttle body and intake." That's not completely accurate.

There are both blow through and draw through turbo/supercharger set-up's, in this case the writer was referring to draw through.

This is where the intake manifold will see both -/+ pressure so that's not the ideal spot for a vacuume source.

"I can't really identify where that fact fits into the Old One's writeup..."
Could you pose that question/statment again, I 'm not clear on what your saying.

 

onasled,
The watery oily mess is perfectly normal. Since you mentioned you were at a track day, and the fact that you were cornering very hard, makes me wonder if some of that mess got sloshed up into the hoses of the CC?? I have seen subarus, at the track, get pure oil in the CC because of the higher cornering forces and the way the engine is layed out, it gets sloshed to one head or the other, then out a vent in the CC. In your situation, i would recommend some SS wool inside the can to keep this from happening.

One last question, when did you install the CC and how many miles before and after the install?

I am asking because unless you cleaned your SC, intake, and IC out before you installed it, there could have been quite a bit of oil left in all those parts. Which finally migrated to the IC on your Track day, will all the prolonged boost you were running.

inimmini,
Just like rubber silicone will aborsorb oil, this is correct in its pure form. Most all the silicone we and others use, have additives/fillers that help stop this. To this day i personally have 30k miles on a CC that i empty about 4 times a year with plenty of the oily watery stuff in it, and the hoses, and body is just fine. Not discolored, soft or anything.

I think the CC the way it is setup on the mini, will never get pure oil in it. Which seems to have the worst effect on silicone. This will not be a problem or a concern of anyones that our hoses, or body will fail, or become butter.

We stand behind our parts and if this was a concern, we would have stopped selling these silicone bodied catch cans 3 years ago.

 

I think the water you guys catch is condensation that builds in the 3-4 feet of COLD silicone hose as warming engine vapors run through during morning start up.

My Alta Oil Catch Can works great btw!

James

 

I understand where the water is coming from.
I used to think my CC worked great also, but found that it simply fails on the track.

 

You're absolutely correct - I'd forgotten about draw-through turbos.

To clarify: The vacuum pickup point used by the majority of the OCCs marketed for MINIs is in the intake tract prior to the supercharger. Thus, that part of the intake tract should see only vacuum, never boost. In reading the writeup on The Old One's forum, I didn't see how that was addressed - as my interpretation of it was that it was tested with a blow-through turbo and thus had the problem of boost coming through the OCC tube.

So my questions:
1. Will the OCC hose - as typically connected prior to the supercharger on a MINI - ever see boost?
2. Is this truly a safe place to connect to a good vacuum source?
3. If 2=false, is there a better place to connect?

 

I uderstand that water is normal.
The CC was cleaned the day before track day as I had just replaced the pulley belt and had to remove the CC to access the install better. I regularly clean the CC, espesially in the cooler months.
The IC was installed the same time as the CC as it is also an Alta product. Again, I regularly remove and check the IC, and again just did so the night before as I replaced the spark plugs.
The oil in the IC happened on track day, no question. I can see that some steel wool (I'd use brass) might help. I do think that with the motor winding out the way it was that the CC actually was not able to catch the oil before it got sucked into the intake.
I know you stand behind your products and I do respect that. It's one of the reasons that I have a drawer full of Alta stickers, on three laptops, and on my helmet .
But, (this may be the wrong thing to say now) after the poor way the WMS issue was handled, I may start peeling them off.