7/30/18 NOTE: This thread started out with discussions on water/methanol injection but is now also delving into smaller super charger pulleys and the impact a smaller pulley has on the water pump that is driven by the supercharger.

8/3/18 NOTE: Looks like the Meth Injection will be around $300 and this amount includes a solenoid valve in lieu of a check valve. The check valve requires additional pump psi to overcome that then impacts the nozzle range.

8/8/18 NOTE: I am not the owner of this forum and like the other Moderators here, merely a volunteer that does not get paid. So do not be concerned on hurting my feelings if you think I am crazy, stupid, or both with what I have done here,

Yes there are threads on this matter but for some of them are pretty old.

So what are the options? Costs? Do and don'ts? Benefits? With or without tunes?

 

I will be doing research on DYI and Manufacturer Kits.

 

Getting into the matter there is allot of information. You can inject just water, just methanol or a mixture of both water and methanol. I will refer to any of these methods as “MI” in my discussions below.

Benefits: The main benefit of MI is a cooling affect that lessons the possibility of premature detonation. This could permit advancing the spark that will in turn create more power. Leaving spark advancement out of the equation, the cooling affect can held the engine utilize increased boost pressure from smaller pulleys.

Brands: There are allot of companies producing kits; AEM, Aquamist, Devil’s Own, Nitrous Express and Snow are the most common you will see if you do an internet search. From what I read, Aquamist is considered the top of line.

Control/Metering System: The amount of liquid; that being water, ethanol or a mixture of both, can be constant or metered. A constant feed would be based upon the size of the injector/nozzle and the pump. A metered system uses a variable speed pump to increase values based upon engine RPM. The amount of liquid being introduced is based on either the amount of boost, or, utilizing the fuel flow (IDC) and manifold pressure signals (MPS) from the ECU. Costs: The cost of MI systems are based on the size of the motor involved and what type of Control/Metering System is used. Prices I saw ranged from just under $300 to almost $1,000. There are also webpages dedicated to building your own system from parts and pieces purchased separately.

Tuning: There are examples of engines using MI to merely help in cooling and then there are examples of an engine being tuned to utilize the cooling effect so that timing can be used to gain some major increases in horsepower. This latter method is “addicting” and the consequences of an engine tuned for MI running out of the MI liquid can be severe. MI liquids: As alluded to earlier, one could use water, methanol of a combination of both. First, remember that 100% can be corrosive to car finished but also it is extremely flammable. I remember watching an Indy race years ago where either a driver or a crewman had methanol splashed on them that ignited. You could not see the blue flame that was produced on the TV but you did see that the person was in agony from the heat until some quick thinking crewman sprayed water to douse the invisible flames. Some of the manufacturers noted above state that no higher than a 50/50 mixture of water/methanol be used. Many will also note that hydrocarbon fuel should not be used. I have read where some people used denatured alcohol that in the preceding case would be detrimental as denatured alcohol is ethanol with gasoline added to it (I was involved in the construction of a 100,000,000 gallon an year ethanol plant). I have also read where some will use winter mix windshield washer that is basically a 70% water/30% methanol mixture but it also includes possible impurities that I for one really do not want to put into my engine on a long term basis.

Going forward I am looking at MI as merely a cooling means in conjunction with a smaller supercharge pulley. Between my RMW Dominator Cam, my 421 header with a high-flow CAT and a Way 2% overdrive crank pulley it would appear that I could install a 17% pulley and that the MI would eliminate the heat sink/spark retarding issue of the increase boost.

 

It would appear that with MI a more aggressive/smaller supercharger pulley could be used. Using round numbers for boost/size the S has 10%, the JCW 12% and 15% pulley upgrades are quite frequent. I have a friend with a 17% and I have read about people with 19%. The issue with smaller pulleys is the increased heat that they create, but wait, the MI lowers intake temperatures, correct?

Another item that should be discussed here is the impact that larger exhaust ports of the JCW or the installation of a more aggressive cam has on boost. So the question is whether with MI one could use a 19% pulley and not have to deal with the increased heat?

 

I run meth with no tune and a 17 % on the track, I have data logs for on & off, and it's a significant drop

All of the pumps are the same, it's just a matter of sourcing one
I use a controller from HPC they are under 100 $ and they offer boost or duty cycle

I had a devils own, but it failed ON, and dumped the meth tank luckly I was on the track so it did not matter but this is the big risk, if it dumps the tank while the car is not running you'll hydro lock the motor and bend a rod or two

 

If a solenoid is placed prior to the injector/nozzle that only activates when key switch is on the issue of a dump is eliminated when the car is off. Another issue that comes into play is how small of a pulley can you go before you have maxed out the supercharger and the water pump. In the early days of NAM there are posts where a 17% would make the water pump cavitate and be too much wear on the supercharger.

 

I am going to see if Jan would like to comment on any of this.

 

yeah a solenoid would do that, make sure you get one that can handle the duty cycle. I have one on my workbench waiting to be installed I also have a pressure sensor to feed my track data logger so I'll know for sure what the system is doing. My data logger can also turn on the solenoid so it only opens over say 4500 rpm

 

I like the idea of lower temperatures, but what is the real world increase in horsepower? I spoke with someone at Snow and he said that I should see an increase of hp due to the ecu seeing lower temps and increasing fuel mix. He said with my jcw tuned car he thought that I would see up to a 10% increase at the wheels without re-tuning.

One thing that I like is that I have a headlight washer on my car which is pretty much useless I am running off-road. I can use that tank for the meth and the whole install will be under the hood.

 

A solenoid could be wired up to either always be on with the key, or, be triggered by the boost. Would think that if you went with the key function the unit would last longer.

 

From what I can tell, all the kits have gravity pumps so the if you want to use the washer well than a second boost pump is needed to get the fluid up to the MI pump. On pumps, I can find pumps that can pull the fluid up and with a check valve you can keep them "primed" but they do not appear to have the pressure push that the MI pumps have. It does make since to me that the more you can atomize the spray the more efficient it is.

 

I feel the difference but i figure it's more from the car not pulling timing due to heat

actual track times? Identical lol I'm tire limited

 

And on HP, it could be that without spark advance you gain nothing with MI but you do not lose HP as the heat factor of the intercooler comes into the equation.

 

also my pump draws from the wiper tank fine just make sure you use the factory connections it will draw right through the factory wiper pump lol

 

Would think that a check valve at the bottom of the washer tank would keep the MI pump primed so that is could be placed next to the ABS controller.

 

Would also like to hear Detroit Tuned and Way Motors thoughts on the supercharger and water pump increased revolutions relative to longevity of both.

 

On my side, I have a 2% ATI overdrive crank pulley from Way Motors along with a Revolution Motor Works Dominator Cam, 450 injectors and Jan's Tune. I also have a 421 header. Doing research on what the impact are if I go with a 17% pulley that when added to the 2% ATI will be detrimental in the long run. Way Motors does make a 16% pulley as well.

When Jan did my tune the redline was not increased that can come into play with the supercharger/waterpump issue.

 

I think the wiper pump has one? I've never had an issue with losing prime the line is clear so I can see if there's air bubbles.

my pump is next to the abs

 

I also read somewhere that you could just tee off the headlight washer line and if you ever used them (only works when the lights are on and you use the washer), the meth/water mix is basically the same as windshield washer fluid with more meth and distilled water.

 

First is has to be the winter mix and then that is normally no more than 30% meth. The summer mixes have soap and even the winter mix is a lower grade meth. I live in North Carolina so lets just say buying Methanol race fuel is no big deal around these parts.

 

Easy to find meth here too. What I meant was that the water/meth makes good or even better washer fluid. I can see the need for headlight washers if you are rally racing off-road or if you live in Europe with lots of rain and bad roads, but it's useless for me.

I also have a MB CLK 320. It has a 7 liter washer tank with coolant lines from the radiator running through it to keep it from freezing as well as headlight washers. The weather here sucks, it's hot as hell, but I would not want to trade weather with Germany.

 

One of the problems with washer fluid, besides dealing with the mix ratios, is the quality of water used and the dye, while once or twice in a pinch wouldn't be horrible, the dye's and water impurities can cause nozzle issues with long term use.

If you've ever seen washer fluid that has evaporated on the surface of something, imagine that blue & white calcium deposit in a MI nozzle orifice.

 

I use the headlight tank, and only use wiper fluid, boost juce or straight distilled water depends on the race event rules, no deposit issues so far, going on 3rd season

 

In a previous post here I brought up the supercharger and a smaller pulley. More heat is created that the MI can help address. What the MI cannot address is the increased RPM that the supercharger is exposed to. I have read all sorts of stuff on pulley ratios and what the M45 was designed for. First, the pulley ratio for the MINI S is the diameter of the crank pulley , 140 mm divided by the supercharger pulley of 65,5 mm or 140/65,5 = 2.14 x 7000 (gas cut off point) = 14,980 RPM. The JCW pulley is smaller, 58 mm so 140/58 = 2.42 x 7000 = 16,940 RPM.

All of the info I have found says the M45 is rated for a max RPM of 16,000 yet it appears the JCW is already beyond that and there are cars out there with 15% - 17,227 RPM and 17% - 17,756 RPM, which is even greater above the 16,000 limit.

 

I ran some numbers on a 19% pulley that appears to provide allot more low end torque. The problem is that at the 7000 redline/cutout it is spinning so much that the heat build up is wicked. If a 6500 cutout was instituted, the supercharger would be spinning at only 16,550 that is actually lower than the JCW pulley does.

I know that during a tune the cutout limit can be increased, wondering whether something like ista can lower it?