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I am looking for some meth heads and/or mechanical engineers to tell me if I am correct with the below.
1.) The flow rate of a M5 nozzle reflects that at 150 PSI the flow rate is approximately 375 cc/min.
2.) You have a 150 PSI pump rated for 1.5 GPM.
3.) The M5 nozzle at 150 PSI will provide 375 cc/min that equates to approximately 0.099 gallons per minute.
4.) As the M5 nozzle produces a flow less than 1.5 GPM the pressure in the line will never exceed 150 PSI.
Is this correct?
After reading more need to add some more criteria:
1.) The flow rate of a M5 nozzle reflects that at 150 PSI the flow rate is approximately 375 cc/min. Factoring in boost the pressure range may be reduced permitting approximately 310 cc/min.
2.) You have a 150 PSI pump rated for 1.5 GPM.
3.) The M5 nozzle will produce 310 cc/min that equates to approximately 0.08 gallons per minute.
4.) There is no check valve in the pipe system but there is a solenoid.
5.) The total length of the pipe is approximately 12 feet and there are no 45 or 90 degree fittings involved.
6.) Boost will assume to be 15 psi
7.) As the M5 nozzle produces a flow less than 1.5 GPM the pressure in the line will never exceed 150 PSI.
Yes or No?
Last edited by Whine not Walnuts; 08-03-2018 at 08:15 AM.
Did allot of research today on pressure loss, pipe roughness, head pressure, orifice size and more. What got me digging into this was that I found what appears to be a good pump at Northern Tools (NT) for $90. The Meth Kit pumps out there start around $135 so this is good saving but I needed to figure out if it would work. Meth Kit pumps are what they call "bypass" pumps meaning they do not have a pressure cut out to speak of. The NT pump is not a bypass but rather has a pressure switch but it is rated for 1.5 gmp at 150 psi. The key was whether the pump pressure would be reached during operation thereby shutting the pump down. If this was during WOT then the MI might be shut down for a short time until the pump was triggered again. This happens too much and the pump wears out quicker. This was the reason for the two preceding posts.
I am a retired construction executive and if I put my mind to it I probably could have figured out how to use some very complicated formulas to figure out whether the M4 or M5 nozzles would work with the NT pump without triggering the pressure switch at 150 psi. After getting a headache reading about Reynolds Number, Laminar Flow and the Darcy–Weisbach equation it occurred to me that either Fire Sprinkler or Lawn Irrigation calculators may be of help. So I looked around and found this great link to a Washington State University irrigation calculator, http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Ca...quirements.php ,and it was just what I needed. I was able to confirm some orifice sizes for nozzles from McMaster-Carr (an industrial supply company). They also had flow rates that I was able to use relative to Meth Kit nozzles. Both the M4 and M5 nozzles will function so that the pressure point of 150 psi will not be reached. This means no cycling off and on during WOT. Remember, this is a cooling kit not for tuning as the larger M6 and M7 may result in the pump switching off.
So my costs for the main items are as follows"
$90 - HP Controller
$90 - Northern Tool Pump
$48 - Snow Solenoid Valve
$24 - Devils Own Nozzle (M4 or M5) $16 - Devils Own Nozzle Holder
$268 TOTAL
Would think I can buy some fittings, pipe and misc hardware for $30 so at that $300 number for a fully controlled system including a solenoid.
No it is not an Aquamist System but like my Chevy Colbalt Brakes, it is viable lower cost option that in this instance will help mitigate the 19% pulley heat soak issue.
Last edited by Whine not Walnuts; 08-03-2018 at 06:09 PM.
I reached out to Jeff Harris at www.hpcontrols.ca about how his MI controller worked that led to some other questions.
Before I get into his responses I want to address "bars" as many times you will note a number of bars associated with MI; 2, 2.5, 3 etc. A "bar" in Meteorology signifies atmospheric pressure with 1 bar being the atmospheric pressure at sea level. One bar equals 14.5038 psi. For a forced induction motor you add the amount of "boost" to the atmospheric pressure so for a Gen1 MINI you could have 14.50 of base pressure with a 15 psi of boot that equals 29.5 psi or 2.03 bars. One would think you want to go with at least a 2.5 bar system in the instance you every increase your boost you system will still function properly. Now, one might argue that if your only plan on driving around Denver, the mile high city, you could get away with a 2 bar system as at one mile high, the atmospheric pressure is only about 12 psi.
Enough of the egg head stuff, lets get to Jeff:
How does your controller work? Our controller uses PWM (pulse width modulation) to control the pump. These rapid on/off periods effectively vary the current to the pump, thus allowing us to vary the pump speed.
How are MI pumps impacted by digital controllers? Water/meth pumps don’t respond linearly to PWM changes, thus our controller has a special ramp rate that the microcontroller computes which results in a relatively linear output with respect to rising boost pressure.
Is there a particular type of pump that should be purchased? What is this "bypass" option that one reads about? As far as pump selection is concerned, the units with internal bypass are preferred over the pressure switch style for two reasons. One, the pressure switches can fail with age as they are fairly rapidly cycling so they do see lots of cycles. The second reason is that when you’re just a bit below 100% pump output, the pressure switch may trigger causing the pump pressure to fall lower than desired since the pump is now turning slower than normal when the pressure switch kicks back on. This isn’t really a deal breaker if you’ve already got one of these pumps, just not optimal.
What is the pump that most of the Meth Kit companies use? Customers tell of success with all sorts of pump brands (even less known ones and pressure switch style pumps) but we recommend the Aquatec DDP series pumps with internal bypass as used by DevilsOwn, CoolingMist, Snow, AEM, etc. Nearly all of the big names in this game have gravitated towards this one pump style for a reason, it works well and is reasonably priced. This pump is actually the one we developed our controller specifically around so it works very well with it.
It is Jeff's last answer that comes into play relative to the bottom line cost of a "do it yourself" system and each individual needs to determine whether they utilize a bypass pump or a less expensive pressure switch type.
I got my pulley puller and 17% pulley from Way on Saturday. Today I did some data logging using both Ista, that I recorded with a program that records what you see on your screen and an iphone ap. On the Intake Air Temp, I never saw over 130 F, and on Manifold Pressure I never exceeded 26.25 psi. Now knowing the elevation around these parts that puts me just a shy over 12 psi of boost on my JCW pulley, an Way 2% overdrive crank pulley, a RMW dominator cam and a 200 high flow cat on my 421 header.
Next step will be to install the 17 and see what the changes are. Will follow that with the MI to see what the temperature decreases will be.
So I put the 17% pulley on that in conjunction with the Way Motors 2% crank overdrive pulley gives me 19% This means I am in the area where Columbus sailed off the edge of the flat earth, my water pump spun so fast that my car started to vaporize the coolant, and the Eaton Supercharger so far out of its normal operating range that it created a nuclear reaction that welded my pistons to the cylinders.
NOT!!!!!!!!!
I took the car out this morning and collected some data both at the beginning of the run and then when I turned around to come back about an hour later. I had stopped and parked for a short time so there should have been some heat soak of the intercooler. What I found was that the manifold pressure remained at about 26 psi up to the around 6,500 rpm at which point there was about 29 psi of manifold pressure. Factoring in the elevation of the area I am in results in 15 psi of boost at high rpms but the same basic values at lower rpms, 12 psi.
Now, my values are by no means scientific and I do not have any equipment that will monitor the motor at very short intervals, but it sure appears that:
1.) The redline cutout is 6,750 rpms as at 6,850 the boost was lowering that would be logical as although my foot was on the peddle hard, the ECU had cut fuel..
2.) The 19% pulley combination DOES NOT make any more boost until the 6,500 engine rpm value is exceeded. This appears to verify the spreadsheets I posted previously in this thread. I have rethought this and that cannot be a true statement. From what I have read, the boost rate is not linear but it is close to it, so it would be logical to assume amount is increasing as the supercharger revs faster. 3.) There does appear to be more heat generated by the this combination. I had a 152 degree readout both at the beginning of my run and after turning around. That is about 20 degrees Fahrenheit higher than with the JCW pulley. The mid range rpm temp value was also higher as I had 145 degrees at 5,084 rpms. This could be from the supercharger turning about 400 rpms faster at the same rpm as the JCW pulley. I am thinking the additional revs produce more heat that the intercooler is soaking up in a static condition.
Last edited by Whine not Walnuts; 08-10-2018 at 07:16 AM.
Reason: 14 psi boost was not correct, 15 is
My "seat of my pants" dyno thinks it feels faster.
Me of the flip phone equates to me not having the latest and greatest. I have a LE Bluetooth so the apps that I can run on the wife's ipod are limited. I can email the data to myself but then I don't have a program that will plot it so I can only review in text format. From what I see, it is obvious that manifold pressure is not linear although close, probably within 10% with different variables. With the JCW pulley I saw a 26.82 (I missed this the other day so my boost was around 12.5 psi) at 5,921. I also saw a 10 psi at 5,500. Today with the 19% combo I saw 26.10 at 5,084. It was in this same portion today that I hit 29.14 at 6,575.
On the heat, in about 2 1/2 minutes I saw the temperature decrease from 152 to 107 when off the boost and going around 55-60.
At the heart of the issue is whether a person can "feel" a tenth of a second.
I would like to hear the thoughts of a Mechanical Engineer as perhaps with the increased supercharger revs at lower engine rpms has impacted static and other air flow variables allowing the smaller pulley/larger pulley ratio to provide boost quicker than just a simple mathematical lineal line.
it's not that much different than on the street, most turns are under 50mph and most tracks have 1 max 2 straights where you break 100 mph. That track log has 2 straights where I can get over 100mph, but you can see the recovery will drop the temp down before I'm even through a 50mph curve
I have been thinking. First, I do not plan on any more engine modifications on my car, but it has occurred to me that if you went with a electric water pump, I would think you could go with a 21% ratio and remove any worry about the water pump spinning at 17,500 rpm. A water/meth injection system would be the way to handle the heat. It does appear that the Euro guys run the 21% and if you went with a meth injection "tune" the only thing with better numbers is a big valve head that is allot more money.
I got the meth injection installed. My mix is 48 ounces of meth to 80 ounces of water that works out to a 37.5 meth rate. Anything 40% or higher is flammable and as my tank is in my boot, I don't want a molotov cocktail in the car with me. I went with a No. 3 nozzle based upon what I read and what I thought I saw on the various flow charts out there. I started out with my HP Controller set to start at 7.5 psi and max out at 12. With those settings I dropped my intake temperatures from 152 to 111. I lowered the start point to 5 with a max-out point of 10 that lowered the intake temps even more with a 100 degree temp at a 14 psi boost value. I had temps in the 96 degree range at lower boost values
So to sum things up I am quite happy with what I did. Around three more psi of boost without adverse heat sink issues is not bad.
Some pictures of the "inexpensive" MI system that I put together but first an interesting fact on the HP Controller. I emailed Jeff Harris at HPControls.ca about his connection method for the MAP sensor circuit. His unit is not like many others out there as he has a separate ground wire for the sensor circuit. He explained there are resistance differences with ground connections and modern digital controls can tell the difference. It impacts how the pump will run as when using a body ground instead of the circuit ground the pump will have "ghost" pulses. I can vouch for this with the HP Controller, the question is whether the other controllers with the separate ground has these pulses when a frame/body ground point has a resistance difference enough to impact the controller sensitivity.
Instead of buying a special "meth" tank, I used a one gallon gas tank that I had in my garage. I drilled a hole in the bottom and used a barbed 1/4" plumbing fitting. I then made up a bracket using some aluminum flat stock I got at Home Depot. I installed both a shut-off and filter between the tank and the pump, MI pumps are not exterior rated and I read several posts where the pumps burned out due to the moist conditions under the hood regardless of placement in the "bins" behind the engine.
The pump is mounted to a plywood panel that in turn is attached to a wood frame system that is then connected to the floor of the boot via a simple "L" angle. With the vert, you cannot really see the pump as it is covered by the rear tray. To infill the tank you need to open the "top attachment" latches and lift up the top.
I did mount the solenoid within the engine compartment. I sealed all the seams in an attempt to mitigate any moisture issues. The injections lines along with the wire harness (and other wires for my gauges) are routed through the firewall via the rubber grommet that the brake pedal linkage slips through, Anytime that I use hose "slip fittings", I like to use tape as a marker so I can tell how far the tube has been inserted into the fitting. You will see some blue painters type tape on the right side of the solenoid for this purpose.
I tried to protect the solenoid by installing a "roof" over it. I bought a simple plastic electrical junction box that I cut to create a tab for attachment. Some black paint and most would never know there is a solenoid below.
The injection line is routed through the bin and into the engine area.
I used velcro to attach the HP Controller. Jeff also provides a small on/toggle that I installed. You will see part of the controller harness at the top right side of the last picture
I did a mountain run yesterday where I could get some good time duration on high boost. Never saw any intake temps above 105 and depending on how I set the HP Control I could lower that to the 90 range. On my way home with everything well warmed up I noted that going up a freeway on-ramp the engine pulled very hard. The on-ramp pull has allot to do with the smaller pulley ratio but with the intake temps being 50 F degrees less, I am able to get the full benefit of the increased boost.
The car has changed allot from the stock JCW I bought almost two years ago with toys from RMW, Way, ECS, Out Motoring and others along with my own wrench turning.
First off, thank you very much for the informative thread! You have done a lot of the legwork on a complicated subject and your results are great! Just to give some anecdotal evidence from my own car (which has been in the family since 2003) and has had a 19% pulley with GIAC tune and JCW injectors since 2006-7 (installed by helix13) is that the supercharger, water pump and motor have been running fine. The car hasn't been on a track, but it has been driven hard and it hasn't given any issues. I actually just tore apart the whole car to freshen it up (all new gaskets, new bushings in the suspension, motor mounts, Quaife LSD, supercharger fluid and gasket change, new OEM water pump, new clutch) and when I pulled the supercharger and drained the fluid it actually wasn't that dirty and had an almost full amount of fluid. (77k miles) The supercharger gears were fine, the water pump impeller had no evidence of cavitation, and none of the bearings had play. Take that for what it is, but I'd be curious to hear about other people that have the same setup as me.
Also, I ran meth injection on a turbocharged Honda S2000 and had decent results with it. The hardest part I found was modifying the tuning to compensate when the 50/50 meth/water mix hit. We ran it pre turbo, at the throttle body, and then finally set up a direct port on the intake runners and had little issues with each setup. Eventually, I ended up scrapping the whole thing and just adding more efficient manifolds, and higher octane fuels to reach the numbers I was looking for. I think a lower flow meth injection that just dropped the IATs is better than relying on the octane booster from the meth as the side effects of having the system fail aren't as detrimental. A lot of these basic meth injection systems use a well pump, very basic tubing and controllers with "fail safes" that provide only very tertiary safety in the case of a failure.
Last edited by Soul Coughing; 08-27-2018 at 07:31 AM.
08-03-2018, 08:05 AM
