Drivetrain Pilo Racing Piston Information
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,731
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From: Anaheim, CA
Dan, thanks for the response.
What benefit does the coating provide, does it increase the pressure the piston generates? Does it aid swirl or combustion? Increase piston life? Just curious. TIA.
What benefit does the coating provide, does it increase the pressure the piston generates? Does it aid swirl or combustion? Increase piston life? Just curious. TIA.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
Originally Posted by 0_MINI
Dan, thanks for the response.
What benefit does the coating provide, does it increase the pressure the piston generates? Does it aid swirl or combustion? Increase piston life? Just curious. TIA.
What benefit does the coating provide, does it increase the pressure the piston generates? Does it aid swirl or combustion? Increase piston life? Just curious. TIA.
First is the Piston Skirt Coating.
This is a dry film lubricant that going on approx .001-.002" thick. it is more of a fail safe then anything else. It aids in "dry start" conditions, and in case of oil pressure failure, there have been reports that engine damage has not occured from these coatings(with a very quick shutdown of the engine after this happens. This coating does ware away over time.
The second is the ceramic coating on the top of the piston. This acts as a heat shield to the piston, and keeps the temperature of the piston down, and will aid in the prevention of detonation. This will allow me to run higher boost (more then the ammount with a 19%) while still running the slightly higher compression (8.5 vs. 8.3) This coating is considered a permanent coating, and under normal operating conditions, last the life of the piston.
Since we will be building the engine from a lower milage block, we should have the engine ready in about 2-3 months. Instead of doing it little by little, we are building it up all the way in one shot. Should be a beast of an engine when finished.
Again,
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me.
Banned
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 864
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From: So Cal
Originally Posted by MiniPilo
There are 2 diffrent coatings going on here, so I will explain them seperate.
First is the Piston Skirt Coating.
This is a dry film lubricant that going on approx .001-.002" thick. it is more of a fail safe then anything else. It aids in "dry start" conditions, and in case of oil pressure failure, there have been reports that engine damage has not occured from these coatings(with a very quick shutdown of the engine after this happens. This coating does ware away over time.
The second is the ceramic coating on the top of the piston. This acts as a heat shield to the piston, and keeps the temperature of the piston down, and will aid in the prevention of detonation. This will allow me to run higher boost (more then the ammount with a 19%) while still running the slightly higher compression (8.5 vs. 8.3) This coating is considered a permanent coating, and under normal operating conditions, last the life of the piston.
Since we will be building the engine from a lower milage block, we should have the engine ready in about 2-3 months. Instead of doing it little by little, we are building it up all the way in one shot. Should be a beast of an engine when finished.
Again,
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me.
First is the Piston Skirt Coating.
This is a dry film lubricant that going on approx .001-.002" thick. it is more of a fail safe then anything else. It aids in "dry start" conditions, and in case of oil pressure failure, there have been reports that engine damage has not occured from these coatings(with a very quick shutdown of the engine after this happens. This coating does ware away over time.
The second is the ceramic coating on the top of the piston. This acts as a heat shield to the piston, and keeps the temperature of the piston down, and will aid in the prevention of detonation. This will allow me to run higher boost (more then the ammount with a 19%) while still running the slightly higher compression (8.5 vs. 8.3) This coating is considered a permanent coating, and under normal operating conditions, last the life of the piston.
Since we will be building the engine from a lower milage block, we should have the engine ready in about 2-3 months. Instead of doing it little by little, we are building it up all the way in one shot. Should be a beast of an engine when finished.
Again,
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
Originally Posted by El Diablito Rojo-N20Mini
just curious... what is a "beast" of an engine? How many ponies for a beast?
Careful with the vocabulary....
Originally Posted by BluMiniMe
Many moons ago, I believe I read that the addition of nearly any weight to a piston, over its blueprinted/balanced state increases inertia exponentially in a reciprocating engine? And, was cause to counter-balance the crank to prevent bearing/journel or even crank failure. So, here's a challenge for Andy, our resident Mr Wizzard (or anyone for that matter)... will this .4oz reduction in piston weight have an adverse effect on crank balance... or enough to worry about counter-balancing? I'm thinking that a .4oz difference at rest represents many, many pounds difference at 6970 rpm...
So, if you add a heavier piston, you have to have a stronger connecting rod! (duh!, sometimes science just proves the obvious!) Now, if you think about what a harmonic balencer does, it damps vibrations that are inhearnt to the crank design. this resonant frequency will change little for such a small change in mass of piston. So think of the vibrations introduced by the heavier pistons as increasing the force that you drive the natural ressonce of the crank. To keep things the same, you'd want a harmonic dampener that can dissipate a bit more energy per unit time (lossier).
Now, I'm a physicist, not an engine builder. So it would be interresting to see if my education on physical forces holds up to real world experience.
An other interesting item: The energy that goes into the pistons drives a purely linear motion, so the energy in the piston is simpley 1/2 MV^2. For the con rod, the top goes linear, and the bottom goes around and around. Energy is stored in all modes of motion, and you have to conside both the linear kinetic energy, but the rotational kinetic energy stored as 1/2 I w^2 (sorry, I don't have an omega key!).
Anyone know if indy cars put more energy into the pistons or the con rods? Just curious......
Matt
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
Originally Posted by CooperSdriver
Any new info on the pistons? I am definitely interested in having those on my car. Any info would be great.
Thanks Again
Danny
Thanks Again
Danny
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 320
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From: Pendleton, IN
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
Remember, one can be an exponent too! but more seriously, the energy in the piston is linear in mass (remember, mv^2). The work needed to be done to reverse the piston therefore scales linearly with mass. Sine the time over which the work is done is constant, the force in the connecting rod must scale with the mass as well. This is zeroth order, but the logic holds.
So, if you add a heavier piston, you have to have a stronger connecting rod! (duh!, sometimes science just proves the obvious!) Now, if you think about what a harmonic balencer does, it damps vibrations that are inhearnt to the crank design. this resonant frequency will change little for such a small change in mass of piston. So think of the vibrations introduced by the heavier pistons as increasing the force that you drive the natural ressonce of the crank. To keep things the same, you'd want a harmonic dampener that can dissipate a bit more energy per unit time (lossier).
Now, I'm a physicist, not an engine builder. So it would be interresting to see if my education on physical forces holds up to real world experience.
An other interesting item: The energy that goes into the pistons drives a purely linear motion, so the energy in the piston is simpley 1/2 MV^2. For the con rod, the top goes linear, and the bottom goes around and around. Energy is stored in all modes of motion, and you have to conside both the linear kinetic energy, but the rotational kinetic energy stored as 1/2 I w^2 (sorry, I don't have an omega key!).
Anyone know if indy cars put more energy into the pistons or the con rods? Just curious......
Matt
So, if you add a heavier piston, you have to have a stronger connecting rod! (duh!, sometimes science just proves the obvious!) Now, if you think about what a harmonic balencer does, it damps vibrations that are inhearnt to the crank design. this resonant frequency will change little for such a small change in mass of piston. So think of the vibrations introduced by the heavier pistons as increasing the force that you drive the natural ressonce of the crank. To keep things the same, you'd want a harmonic dampener that can dissipate a bit more energy per unit time (lossier).
Now, I'm a physicist, not an engine builder. So it would be interresting to see if my education on physical forces holds up to real world experience.
An other interesting item: The energy that goes into the pistons drives a purely linear motion, so the energy in the piston is simpley 1/2 MV^2. For the con rod, the top goes linear, and the bottom goes around and around. Energy is stored in all modes of motion, and you have to conside both the linear kinetic energy, but the rotational kinetic energy stored as 1/2 I w^2 (sorry, I don't have an omega key!).
Anyone know if indy cars put more energy into the pistons or the con rods? Just curious......
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,816
Likes: 2
From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
An other interesting item: The energy that goes into the pistons drives a purely linear motion, so the energy in the piston is simpley 1/2 MV^2. For the con rod, the top goes linear, and the bottom goes around and around. Energy is stored in all modes of motion, and you have to conside both the linear kinetic energy, but the rotational kinetic energy stored as 1/2 I w^2 (sorry, I don't have an omega key!).
Matt
The piston's motion would be linear if forces (pressure) exerted on them were evenly distributed, which they're not... Otherwise the piston rocks in the bore and in some instances, the rocking is enough that the piston skirts hit the bore. You can hear it... Its sounds like engine knock but its called slap. Lightweight pistons (with weight taken out of the skirts) tend to do this, atleast until operating temp. GM had a big problem with this in their truck engines.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
Originally Posted by macncheese
Matt,
The piston's motion would be linear if forces (pressure) exerted on them were evenly distributed, which they're not. Otherwise the piston rocks in the bore. In some instances, the rocking is enough that the piston skirts hit the bore. You can hear it. Its sounds like engine knock but its called slap. Lightweight pistons (with weight taken out of the skirts) tend to do this, atleast until operating temp. GM had a big problem with this in their truck engines.
The piston's motion would be linear if forces (pressure) exerted on them were evenly distributed, which they're not. Otherwise the piston rocks in the bore. In some instances, the rocking is enough that the piston skirts hit the bore. You can hear it. Its sounds like engine knock but its called slap. Lightweight pistons (with weight taken out of the skirts) tend to do this, atleast until operating temp. GM had a big problem with this in their truck engines.
1st Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: UK
Originally Posted by MiniPilo
Here is some information and aplace to discuss the upcoming Pistons that we have coming out. I am removing the information from Helix's and PSI-FI's Post.
Info From Post:
A Set of four pistons should run in the mid 600's for a Forged Custom Piston.
Install of pistons requires removal of cylinder head, and dropping the oil pan. then they will just drop right in.
It is a great idea to chang a the same time as changing the cylinder head for the best performance. If there are other questions about this, please contact me directly, or start anothr post. I do not want to hyjack this thread.
Info From Post:
A Set of four pistons should run in the mid 600's for a Forged Custom Piston.
Install of pistons requires removal of cylinder head, and dropping the oil pan. then they will just drop right in.
It is a great idea to chang a the same time as changing the cylinder head for the best performance. If there are other questions about this, please contact me directly, or start anothr post. I do not want to hyjack this thread.
Hello,
I am on the Hunt for other pistons, your spec listed is close to what i am after but i have sent you 2 pms and a e-mail to you!
Do you normally not reply or have you not recieved them?
Rick...short of 4 Pilo Pistons:impatient
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
Likes: 0
From: Wyckoff, NJ
Originally Posted by Rickkys'S
Hello,
I am on the Hunt for other pistons, your spec listed is close to what i am after but i have sent you 2 pms and a e-mail to you!
Do you normally not reply or have you not recieved them?
Rick...short of 4 Pilo Pistons:impatient
I am on the Hunt for other pistons, your spec listed is close to what i am after but i have sent you 2 pms and a e-mail to you!
Do you normally not reply or have you not recieved them?
Rick...short of 4 Pilo Pistons:impatient
Sorry for the lack of comunication. I thought I had replied. E-Mail me dan@piloracing.com and we can discuss your needs.
1st Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: UK
Originally Posted by MiniPilo
Hey,
Sorry for the lack of comunication. I thought I had replied. E-Mail me dan@piloracing.com and we can discuss your needs.
Sorry for the lack of comunication. I thought I had replied. E-Mail me dan@piloracing.com and we can discuss your needs.
Ok Dan,
You are right im Wrong
, your return mail was stuck in my spam filter, along with two others from another vendor.Sorry for letting everyone think you don't reply to mail.....I was to quick in assuming
.Sorry again Dan, will get back to you shortly when i get my way out of this hole im in
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