Anyone heard of turbo on a cvt recently.. I thinkI saw a post on Mighty miniz about a turbo on an MC.. I had heard before on here that the 5speed MC is different then the cvt MC... Jsu twanted to clear it up.. will teh turbo work on a cvt MC..? if yes then Is it worth it?

 

Chollomo, anything is possible, but keep in mind that until a protoype is seen rolling all will be pure speculation.

 

Hey Chollomo,
I think it was Cooper4us that posted something awhile back that said the CVT is a very stout transmission that can handle over 200 HP right out of the box, and the manufacturer of the CVT was ZF who had their own web site, and the CVT was a VT1 transmission. I have the CVT MC too, and am considering a turbo upgrade, down the road. I was concerned about the CVT being able to handle the extra HP, but not after reading that post. I would like to find the ZF site to read more about it, but don't know what the web address is. So, I would think the turbo would work on the CVT no problem. One of my concerns with the turbo is the turbo lag, but with the CVT (and any automatic transmission) there is also a bit of a lag to spool up the transmission on takeoff. I am thinking that the turbo lag would occur at the same time as the CVT is spooling up so that both lags take place at the same time, rather than having a turbo lag and then also having a CVT lag to add to that delay, making the delay take twice as long. If so, the turbo would add very nicely to the CVT, and would be an awesome combination. Does anyone have any more comments on this?

Cooper4us: If it was you that posted that thread on the CVT, do you know what the web address is for ZF, the manufacturer of the CVT?

I appreciate all comments.

 

There's one guy here in Dallas that has modified nearly everything on his MC CVT - polished/ported head, cam, headers, throttle body, ECU, intake, exhaust, etc. They estimate he's up around 150+ hp right now, and the CVT isn't bothered at all. They've put a temp sensor in the tranny, and it's always reading the same thing - well within the normal operating temp range. I don't think the CVT would have a problem with a turbo at all, if the boost was kept low enough to keep the motor around 165 hp.

 

I think Diamond Racing was working on one...email them and find out...

 

The Dallas guy - primeMINIster, has also put some Cooper S valves in, and I believe a turbo is one of his future mods for that car.

 

I talk to primeMINIster quite often, and he's buying a 5-speed right now... and then swapping all the parts from the CVT over to it, returning the CVT to stock and selling it.

Should be interesting to see what the performance is like with a modded 5-Speed.

 

CooperSpeed is correct, Diamond Racing Group races 2 turbo CVT Minis. I have been waiting for them to get it ready for retail. They are still in the testing phase of it, and frnakly I'd like to see them destroy their transmissions in trials before I do.

Though I really hope they do not break the CVT at all.

 

Here is the link to the main ZF site webpage:

http://www.zf.com/defaultz.asp


the ZF VT1 CVT box is a pretty impressive and sturdy transmission. I would highly recommend going over to http://www.mini2.com and then on the forums select "One/Cooper CVT" discussion forums for very interesting conversation on this technological masterpiece.

 

I'm personally waiting for the highways to be littered with the ruined transmissions of CVT and 5 speed Coopers as they are modded. I mean, we all know they can't handle it, right?

 

I think CVT's have trouble with torque loads not soo much HP loads.

 

Someone wrote to ZF asking about MODS and they replied that the CVT is not made to handle additional horsepower. (That why its not on the MCS right now). The thread is on MINI2 in the CVT forum.

 

I'm still waiting for actual PROOF that the CVT can't handle the power. If someone said Diamond Racing destroyed a stock CVT while strapping a turbo on, cool. Until then, there will be speculation as to what the CVT can or cannot do.

As far as the unavailability of the CVT on the MCS - I suspect part of this is also BMW marketing and keeping the initial offering of the MCS "pure" and unsullied by what some would deem as an evil slushbox....

 

Thanks Cooper4us for the links, and the rest of you for your opinions and comments. I read the info on the links, and MINI2 has a lot of threads on this topic, with a separate section on just the CVT. The ZF website is hard to figure out and I can't determine what CVT is in the MINI from the website (but I'm no computer whiz), but according to a MINI2 thread (they don't seem to be able to figure it out either), the MINI Cooper CVT is the ZF ecoTronic VT1F CVT. The VT1F is not specifically listed below, so I am a bit confused (that's not hard to do -- ha ha), but it may be the VT1.

The ZF website shows 3 ZF CVT transmissions:
VT1 Econtronic rated at 165 Nm torque (which a thread on MINI2 said is 121-122
lb/ft torque),
CFT 23 Ecotronic rated at 250 Nm torque,
CFT 30 Ecotronic rated at 310 Nm torque.

A MINI2 thread said these CVTs are used in different cars, and the more capable CVTs above use a larger belt (i.e., 30mm belt vs 24mm belt), and that ZF said that the MINI CVT cannot be upgraded with the larger belt or the other upgrades needed for the higher capability. A MINI2 thread said that the ZF website stated that the smaller VT1F transmits torques of up to 175 Nm (which MINI2 said was 129 lb/ft). If this is the MINI CVT, that is an increase of 19 lb/ft (129 - 110 for stock CVT), which is an increase of 17% (19 divided by 110 is 17%). [Note: The MINI2 thread also stated that a ZF brochure stated the torque at 165 Nm (or 122 lb/ft) and 88kW (120 bhp).] So, it sounds like ZF is saying the standard torque is 165, but that it could be as high as 175 Nm.

A MINI2 thread posted that they got a response letter from ZF stating that increasing the HP of the MINI will damage the transmission. I think itsthedirtybird is right in that its the torque that is the main issue with the CVT (i.e., off the line surge in power), although HP certainly plays a part too of course. Now I'm somewhat bummed out about the CVT limitations. However, dandp -- you've made some good points, such as Diamond Racing is modding CVT MINIs with a turbo and haven't killed their cars yet, and we have not heard of any blown up transmissions on the side of the road. So, we CVT owners will be anxious for the Diamond Racing results. Plus, a MINI2 thread noted that legal issues may be precluding ZF from recommending CVT owners increase power to their MINIs, and that makes sense to me. They don't want to give us the green light to increase power, and then if something breaks, then get sued. Also of note is that the JCW for the MC in Europe is not offered on the CVT MINI.

So, there is still a lot of confusion on the MINI2 website about this transmission as to what torque and HP it can handle, and some people there have been geting some answers from ZF.

If anyone knows any more, please let us know, or if I have got anything wrong above. Motor on.

 

I do not BELIVE Diamond has a Turbo in either of their CVT's
They CLAIMED to have it on their SEMA Cooper, Yet refused to show any evidence of it
They did however, have an ugly TURBO decal on their windshield, and an ILL fitting CF bonnet which looked like it was fitted with Play-Doh and Horse Snot

-West Coast Coopers

 

I do agree that there is a limit to the CVT. It is my understanding also that the engine internals are quite different bewteen a MC and MCS. The pistons, rods and crank are not as strong as in the S therefore limiting mods for the MC. Would I turbo the CVT MC? NO! Would I put a nitrous kit in the car? NO! In the case of the primeMINIster, because of the CVT and engine internals, we are finished modifying the car! This is the opinion of Graham Chandler of All Tune and Lube and myself. I can say however, the primeMINIster can hold its own against a forced induction car (turbo)! Quite frankly this has surprised me. Remember the life of a car is based upon the driving habits of its owner! I normally drive the CVT in sport mode aggressively!

Update: We are not changing the CVT to a manual due to the engine limitations described above. The only logical choice now is to move to an S. However, it sure is fun surprising people with a modified automatic now equal to the hp of a stock S!

Following is the complete list of mods to the primeMINIster:

BMP Instake
Madness Big-Bore Throttle Body
SuperSprint Exhaust
Powerchip ECU
H-Sport Springs
Alta Rear Sway Bar
H-Sport Control Arms
17" Wheels and Yokohama ES100s
Schrick Stage 1 Camshaft
Milltek Stainless Header
Cooper S Valves
Ported/Polished Cylinder Head

The list of the interior mods are as follows:

Union Jack Flag Sunroof Decal by Cooper Flags
Bonnet Stripes
Rally Lights
Tinted Windows
Euro Shelf
Console Organizer


Finally, the most important mod:

thePassport SR7 with Laser Shifters

Now the real questions is: "How well is the CVT handling all this hp"? The answer is just fine with no problems. If I had to guess we are pushing 160 to 165 hp on the Cooper (stock 115hp)!

It has been a wild ride. Check out the posts on MetroplexMINI.org under primeMINIster for more details.

--Robert



_________________
the primeMINIster
2003 IB/MC CVT
Bonnet Stripes and Rally Lights

 

^^^That was real cool, primeMINIster . Dig your no bulls*** take on the ways of the MINI. Keep on kicking behind

 

COOL!

Now what exactly on your list gave you 50 Extra Horsies?

Nice list by the way.

-WCC

 

The ported/polished cylinder head with MCS valves and the camshaft made the biggest difference. The stock Cooper cylinder head with valves was very restrictive. What we did greatly allowed better breathing. Combinig this with the new ECU, cold air intake, throttle body, milltek exhaust header, and supersprint exhaust is what approx. gave the car an extra 50 hp. I need to dyno the car for accurate hp reading.

--Robert

 

Also, I thought everyone would like to see the difference in the Cooper cylinder head before and after.

Please click on this link:
http://www.mev.cc

Click on MINI Cooper. Then choose the two links entitled MINI Cooper cylinder head and Porting the MINI Cooper cylinder head.

--Robert

_________________
the primeMINIster
2003 IB/MC CVT
Bonnet Stripes and Rally Lights

 

The performane mods to the primeMINIster were all done at my shop in Lewisville, Texas with the exception of the intake which was done before I got my hands on the car. I knew about the limitations of the CVT power and torque-wise so we stepped carefully doing one piece at a time and then testing the cars response.

In it's current state of tune the car really gets going once you get over the initial bog getting the transmission engaged. There is a huge power absorption at launch for some reason. Anyway the car flies after that and I know the owner has taken delight in surprising other drivers, even a very surprised WRX owner! We haven't tried it yet but the way it drives, I have every reason to believe the top speed is in the 130s now that the limiter is gone.

As has been said, the car lacks the chromealloy pistons and associated oil sprayers that the S has, also the nitrided rods and steel crank. So we don't want to break anything there. I'm a bit mystified as to why the 5 speed has a higher RPM limit than the CVT which is also a limitation (CVT with Powerchip software is 6200rpm vs 6750 (iI believe that's right) on the 5-speed).

The owner drove my car and found that it was an entirely different animal than a stock S so he's now wanting that and I believe we'll go down that road with an MCS quite soon. That 50 mph in first and 75 in second is kind of a wild ride!

Graham

 

Hi, primeMINIster & mckinneymini!! Just curious --> what were the gains from the CVT Powerchip ECU & from who did you fellows order it from? Many thanks & Happy New Year

 

>>Hi, primeMINIster & mckinneymini!! Just curious --> what were the gains from the CVT Powerchip ECU & from who did you fellows order it from? Many thanks & Happy New Year

The Powerchip for the CVT Cooper was ordered thru Webb Motorsports so we could get the, 'er "Kick *** Algorithms" and sneak them in over the top of the stock ones. Now we own the place (the CVT performance arena that is).

I'd say the power gain was in the 12hp range.

Graham

_________________
'03 MCS, MM CAI, Rear Sway Bar, Control Arms, H-Sports, Quicksilver Catback, Alta Pulley, Powerchip ECU remap, Big Bore Throttle Body, Nology Wires, & Iridium Spark Plugs, Rogue Short Shifter

 

100% absolutley agree...about the "Kick *** Algorithms" with the new Powerchip ECU!

--Robert

_________________
the primeMINIster
2003 IB/MC CVT
Bonnet Stripes and Rally Lights

 

Going back to the topic "Turbo CVT", if you did the turbo without doing the other things such as a ported head, more aggressive cam, headers, larger throttle body, or ECU mods, you might be OK, although no guarantees!

In my opinion, you can't do it all on a CVT and get away with it. The steel belt drive in the transmission either won't take it, or the weaker (compared to the S) pistons, rods and crankshaft become victim of failure.

There's a reason that MINI didn't use the CVT in the S and a reason that the S engine is stronger and better lubricated.

Graham

_________________
'03 MCS, MM CAI, Rear Sway Bar, Control Arms, H-Sports, Quicksilver Catback, Alta Pulley, Powerchip ECU remap, Big Bore Throttle Body, Nology Wires, & Iridium Spark Plugs, Rogue Short Shifter