Drivetrain Turbo CVT?
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,306
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>>The Powerchip for the CVT Cooper was ordered thru Webb Motorsports so we could get the, 'er "Kick *** Algorithms" and sneak them in over the top of the stock ones. Now we own the place (the CVT performance arena that is).
===>Thanks a lot, mckinneymini & primeMINIster!! The Italian Job was so cooooooool ...loved it
. You two definitely own the CVT performance arena, hands down 
===>Thanks a lot, mckinneymini & primeMINIster!! The Italian Job was so cooooooool ...loved it
. You two definitely own the CVT performance arena, hands down 
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
From: Export, Pa
>>>>The Powerchip for the CVT Cooper was ordered thru Webb Motorsports so we could get the, 'er "Kick *** Algorithms" and sneak them in over the top of the stock ones. Now we own the place (the CVT performance arena that is).
>>
>>===>Thanks a lot, mckinneymini & primeMINIster!! The Italian Job was so cooooooool ...loved it . You two definitely own the CVT performance arena, hands down
The next obvious question is: How about I come over there and put some mods on your car?
>>
>>===>Thanks a lot, mckinneymini & primeMINIster!! The Italian Job was so cooooooool ...loved it
. You two definitely own the CVT performance arena, hands down The next obvious question is: How about I come over there and put some mods on your car?
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Garland, Texas
Hey Graham (mckinneymini)...since you and I own the CVT performance arena...I must insist that I tag along..being the only fully modified and fastest CVT in the country so far thanks to Chandler Motor Sports! 
Can you imagine how much fun it would be to rally up and down all of the volcanoes on each of the island. I bet CoopDogg could set up a great rally for MINIs in Hawaii! Heck, we might even help sponsor the event! 
The race could be called Houla'ng MINIs!
--Robert
_________________
the primeMINIster
2003 IB/MC CVT
Bonnet Stripes and Rally Lights
Can you imagine how much fun it would be to rally up and down all of the volcanoes on each of the island. I bet CoopDogg could set up a great rally for MINIs in Hawaii! Heck, we might even help sponsor the event! The race could be called Houla'ng MINIs! --Robert
_________________
the primeMINIster
2003 IB/MC CVT
Bonnet Stripes and Rally Lights
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC area
Hey Graham (mckinneymini) and Robert (primeMINIster),
The MINI you two put together is totally awesome! I read your web pages Robert to check out your modding the head, etc, and that is very interesting. Thanks for letting us know that porting/polishing the head, larger valves and higher performance cam made the biggest gain. I like that you modded your MC that way (and other stuff) instead of adding a turbo. Dandp has also done much of what you have done, too. I'm a little leery of adding a turbo, when and if they are offerred later for the MC. I like your way way better.
I am not going to do any more mods this year, but in 2005 I plan on doing some serious mods of some type, either engine mods or lightening the car, or suspension (?). For engine mods, I had thought of also adding lightweight pistons, rods, and a more rugged crank. I noticed that you had not done that. Were you afraid of that extra power might be too much for the MC to handle, as you mentioned that the MC engine or CVT can only take so much, so you are not recommending the turbo mod. Do you think these additional mods (pistons, rods, crank) along with the mods you have done would be too much for the CVT? Thanks again for sharing with us your interesting mods on your CVT MC.
The MINI you two put together is totally awesome! I read your web pages Robert to check out your modding the head, etc, and that is very interesting. Thanks for letting us know that porting/polishing the head, larger valves and higher performance cam made the biggest gain. I like that you modded your MC that way (and other stuff) instead of adding a turbo. Dandp has also done much of what you have done, too. I'm a little leery of adding a turbo, when and if they are offerred later for the MC. I like your way way better.
I am not going to do any more mods this year, but in 2005 I plan on doing some serious mods of some type, either engine mods or lightening the car, or suspension (?). For engine mods, I had thought of also adding lightweight pistons, rods, and a more rugged crank. I noticed that you had not done that. Were you afraid of that extra power might be too much for the MC to handle, as you mentioned that the MC engine or CVT can only take so much, so you are not recommending the turbo mod. Do you think these additional mods (pistons, rods, crank) along with the mods you have done would be too much for the CVT? Thanks again for sharing with us your interesting mods on your CVT MC.
Banned
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 116
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>>The ported/polished cylinder head with MCS valves and the camshaft made the biggest difference. The stock Cooper cylinder head with valves was very restrictive. What we did greatly allowed better breathing. Combinig this with the new ECU, cold air intake, throttle body, milltek exhaust header, and supersprint exhaust is what approx. gave the car an extra 50 hp. I need to dyno the car for accurate hp reading.
>>
>>--Robert
Do you honestly BELIEVE all that gave you 50 hp?
I would love to see dyno results.
If you are adding up "advertised Claims" per product, it will be fun to see how "true' those claims are.
Can we wager on this?
- WCC
>>
>>--Robert
Do you honestly BELIEVE all that gave you 50 hp?
I would love to see dyno results.
If you are adding up "advertised Claims" per product, it will be fun to see how "true' those claims are.
Can we wager on this?
- WCC
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Garland, Texas
>>
>>Do you honestly BELIEVE all that gave you 50 hp?
>>I would love to see dyno results.
>>
>>If you are adding up "advertised Claims" per product, it will be fun to see how "true' those claims are.
>>
>>Can we wager on this?
>>
>>- WCC
The primeMINIster has not undergone a dyno test although it would be fun to see the results!
The plan that I set out for the car was to work everything toward a common goal of an efficient engine. I worked with my tuner, and we first started with the intake efficiency. We then had to get the throttle body enlarged. The next plan of attack was to modify the intake and exhaust valves to further reduce the bottleneck, so we used the S valves which are made of better material plus they are more streamlined.
While we had this all torn apart, we added the high-lift cam and the ported/polished cylinder head for better and efficient flow. In order to continue achieving our goal, we added the Milltek header to increase the exhaust flow and of course ditched the stock exhaust. The Supersprint is way better than the stock system and sounds great. So now we have a proper breathing engine with few restrictions. Then we had to change the software to make sure the fuel/air ratios and ignition timing were optimal, and remove the top speed limiter. That made a big difference!
I didn't just add up all the claimed hp from the various vendors. As you probably know, total hp cannot be measured in that manner! If I had done that, then the "advertised" hp gain would have been somewhere around 185+ hp. What we really did was to make it all work together efficiently; and the proof is in the pudding! Everyone that drives my car is flat amazed! I'm even amazed that I can take on WRXs!
Remember a CVT has more drive line loss than that of a standard. It is not direct drive. I feel confident however that "opening the airways" and our streamlining has definitely added the extra 50 hp. The unknown factor is the additional hp of the ported and polished cylinder head.
--Robert
>>Do you honestly BELIEVE all that gave you 50 hp?
>>I would love to see dyno results.
>>
>>If you are adding up "advertised Claims" per product, it will be fun to see how "true' those claims are.
>>
>>Can we wager on this?
>>
>>- WCC
The primeMINIster has not undergone a dyno test although it would be fun to see the results!
The plan that I set out for the car was to work everything toward a common goal of an efficient engine. I worked with my tuner, and we first started with the intake efficiency. We then had to get the throttle body enlarged. The next plan of attack was to modify the intake and exhaust valves to further reduce the bottleneck, so we used the S valves which are made of better material plus they are more streamlined.
While we had this all torn apart, we added the high-lift cam and the ported/polished cylinder head for better and efficient flow. In order to continue achieving our goal, we added the Milltek header to increase the exhaust flow and of course ditched the stock exhaust. The Supersprint is way better than the stock system and sounds great. So now we have a proper breathing engine with few restrictions. Then we had to change the software to make sure the fuel/air ratios and ignition timing were optimal, and remove the top speed limiter. That made a big difference!
I didn't just add up all the claimed hp from the various vendors. As you probably know, total hp cannot be measured in that manner! If I had done that, then the "advertised" hp gain would have been somewhere around 185+ hp. What we really did was to make it all work together efficiently; and the proof is in the pudding! Everyone that drives my car is flat amazed! I'm even amazed that I can take on WRXs!
Remember a CVT has more drive line loss than that of a standard. It is not direct drive. I feel confident however that "opening the airways" and our streamlining has definitely added the extra 50 hp. The unknown factor is the additional hp of the ported and polished cylinder head.
--Robert
Banned
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 116
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Well, Sounds good.
Good Luck with all that.
From some of my past experience and from people I've spoken with about these sort of mods, a 50hp gain is a bit of a pipe dream.
In order to gain such high numbers, you would really need to add a SC or a Turbo.
I do not doubt that you've found some gains and that can "feel" like a lot more hp sometimes.
Opening the exhaust flow, you will soon find, is not a prime solution. The cooper needs backpressure.
There will not be very many hp gains from a ported and polished head, you will soon find that out too.
Good Luck!
-WCC
Good Luck with all that.
From some of my past experience and from people I've spoken with about these sort of mods, a 50hp gain is a bit of a pipe dream.
In order to gain such high numbers, you would really need to add a SC or a Turbo.
I do not doubt that you've found some gains and that can "feel" like a lot more hp sometimes.
Remember a CVT has more drive line loss than that of a standard. It is not direct drive. I feel confident however that "opening the airways" and our streamlining has definitely added the extra 50 hp. The unknown factor is the additional hp of the ported and polished cylinder head.
Opening the exhaust flow, you will soon find, is not a prime solution. The cooper needs backpressure.
There will not be very many hp gains from a ported and polished head, you will soon find that out too.
Good Luck!
-WCC
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
I'm sorry to say this Turbo CVT thread is now a discussion of the great-
primeMINIster.
To Robert and Graham-lets start a new thread about the primeMINIster- great mods by the way.
To WCC-
I'd have to agree with you until I see the dyno numbers myself. Estimates and even best guesses are no guarantee of real measurable power gains. I think you have a really nice fast MC though no matter what the numbers say. Get on a track and stick to Graham's MCS and I will be impressed.
And now let us return to our normally scheduled channel-
"Turbo CVT" I'd be watching M7 for that one.
primeMINIster.
To Robert and Graham-lets start a new thread about the primeMINIster- great mods by the way.
To WCC-
I'd have to agree with you until I see the dyno numbers myself. Estimates and even best guesses are no guarantee of real measurable power gains. I think you have a really nice fast MC though no matter what the numbers say. Get on a track and stick to Graham's MCS and I will be impressed.
And now let us return to our normally scheduled channel-
"Turbo CVT" I'd be watching M7 for that one.
Banned
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Good
That primeMINIster stuff was in the way.
Yea, I read all that M7 Turbo stuff here and Teammightyminiz.
That setup would be awesome on a CVT and there is no reason it wouldn't work!
Turbos have evolved so much in the past 20 years, it's amazing.
I look forward to seeing the Turbo's in action someday, and with M7 in SoCal, someday might be sooner than later.
-WCC
That primeMINIster stuff was in the way.
Yea, I read all that M7 Turbo stuff here and Teammightyminiz.
That setup would be awesome on a CVT and there is no reason it wouldn't work!
Turbos have evolved so much in the past 20 years, it's amazing.
I look forward to seeing the Turbo's in action someday, and with M7 in SoCal, someday might be sooner than later.
-WCC
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC area
I agree that PrimeMINIsters car is sure awesome for sure no matter what the wheel HP numbers are. Back to turbos.
Yea I can't wait to see the M7 turbo readied for the CVT. The CVT has that lag on initial startup. So I'm wondering if the turbo lag is kept short by keeping the boost small, whether the turbo lag will happen at the same time as the CVT lag, or if they will happen one after the other, which means a double lag. If they occur at the same time, then they should work together quite well and be an awesome combo. It appears that if the boost is kept low the CVT can handle it, as primeMINIster's MINI is proof (of a related sort).
Yea I can't wait to see the M7 turbo readied for the CVT. The CVT has that lag on initial startup. So I'm wondering if the turbo lag is kept short by keeping the boost small, whether the turbo lag will happen at the same time as the CVT lag, or if they will happen one after the other, which means a double lag. If they occur at the same time, then they should work together quite well and be an awesome combo. It appears that if the boost is kept low the CVT can handle it, as primeMINIster's MINI is proof (of a related sort).
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC area
Another issue with a turbo for the MC is the engine compression. The MC has a higher compression that the MCS. The MCS being supercharged needs a lower compression ratio. The MCS accomplishes this by using pistons with a different top on them that has lower compression. However, once you turbocharge the MC, I wonder if the compression ratio will be too high. If so, would it then be better to use the chromalloy pistons from the MCS. If you did that, you could also put in the sturdier rods too and while you're at it, the heftier crankshaft, as these parts are all better made in the MCS.
I'm trying to think of the reason that a supercharged or turbocharged engine needs a lower compression ratio than a non-one. I know I read that somewhere. They also must use premium gas for the same reason if I remember right. It may be to prevent the occurance of a lean burning condition, which could seriously damage the engine. Do I have this right anyone?
I'm trying to think of the reason that a supercharged or turbocharged engine needs a lower compression ratio than a non-one. I know I read that somewhere. They also must use premium gas for the same reason if I remember right. It may be to prevent the occurance of a lean burning condition, which could seriously damage the engine. Do I have this right anyone?
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC area
Aaahhh, thanks CooperSpeed. I read that post. Really cool what M7 is doing.
M7 has a turbo CVT MC running 5-7 psi boost with about 165 HP (with no problems mentioned), whereas Diamond Racing said they had a turbo CVT MC with 12-14 psi of boost and had all kinds of problems with damaged pistons, etc, but their CVT may have been fine (apparently). Sounds like Peter at M7 is doing it right. Go Peter Go!!! Peter at M7 is supposed to be taking pre-orders for the turbo for CVT MC this month (January 2004).
M7 has a turbo CVT MC running 5-7 psi boost with about 165 HP (with no problems mentioned), whereas Diamond Racing said they had a turbo CVT MC with 12-14 psi of boost and had all kinds of problems with damaged pistons, etc, but their CVT may have been fine (apparently). Sounds like Peter at M7 is doing it right. Go Peter Go!!! Peter at M7 is supposed to be taking pre-orders for the turbo for CVT MC this month (January 2004).
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC area
Correction -- M7 will soon be putting a turbo in a CVT MC for testing, and currently is testing a 5-speed turbo MC with 5-7 psi boost with no problems. Peter at M7 thinks the turbo will work fine in the CVT MC.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,193
Likes: 1
From: CT, Litchfield County
No problem buddy. Yeah the CVT should hold. Diamond had all kinds of problems with the turbo and how they set it up. Yest the CVT tranny held up the 12-14psi(supposedly) of boost...that much boost would probably put the hp around 250 maybe? Correct me if I am wrong. I think the CVT can handle a turbo if done the proper way...
Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,594
Likes: 2
From: los angeles
Dudes and Dudetes.....
To let you guy's know what the delio is with the turbo system, as of 2 weeks ago we had two thousand pain and lag free miles on the MC, the new fueling system is doing it's job allowing full boost without any knocking or pinging.
I do have to say that the Turbo in this car is a perfect match, adding another dimension to the experience of driving.
Regarding the CVT we will install one in my customer Thomases car in Fresno very soon this will give us a good indication
what actualy happens, without some unsubstantiated stories from diamond raclng.
And for the people in California, as soon as we are ready to sell the system, CARB certification will start allowing you
to drive with the system legaly
And as always call me for more info...
peter horvath
562-712-3270
To let you guy's know what the delio is with the turbo system, as of 2 weeks ago we had two thousand pain and lag free miles on the MC, the new fueling system is doing it's job allowing full boost without any knocking or pinging.
I do have to say that the Turbo in this car is a perfect match, adding another dimension to the experience of driving.
Regarding the CVT we will install one in my customer Thomases car in Fresno very soon this will give us a good indication
what actualy happens, without some unsubstantiated stories from diamond raclng.
And for the people in California, as soon as we are ready to sell the system, CARB certification will start allowing you
to drive with the system legaly
And as always call me for more info...
peter horvath
562-712-3270
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
>>........And for the people in California, as soon as we are ready to sell the system, CARB certification will start allowing you
>>to drive with the system legaly
finally, something that wont get me ticketed...
>>to drive with the system legaly
finally, something that wont get me ticketed...
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC area
I also think the CVT will be able to handle the turbo no problem. I think that will be a great combo! With a turbo, I'm a little concerned about turbo lag. There is already a lag for the CVT to spool up (as with any automatic transmission). Peter has said that the turbo lag will be minimal. So that is good news. I wonder if there are any mods to a turbo'd CVT MC that could improve throttle response and performance off the line? I guess the main thing is keeping the boost low, which is what Peter is doing. Even with low boost the power is still 165 hp or so -- totally awesome! I wonder how much weight the turbo will add to the front of the car?
An alternative to a turbo, but more expensive, is to do what primeMINIster did with his CVT MC (a very fine car), which was to have: ported and polished head with the larger MCS valves, Schrick cam, header and exhaust, intake, larger throttle body, Webb Motorsport ECU (what else?). However, primeMINIster has reported that with his setup he has a big lag on take off, but once going it works great. You would think that lag would be reduced with that setup. Hmmm. So to compare the two will be interesting. So, it sounds like either way will be a lag on takeoff.
Anyway, all is well in CVT land. The turbo should be awesome!
An alternative to a turbo, but more expensive, is to do what primeMINIster did with his CVT MC (a very fine car), which was to have: ported and polished head with the larger MCS valves, Schrick cam, header and exhaust, intake, larger throttle body, Webb Motorsport ECU (what else?). However, primeMINIster has reported that with his setup he has a big lag on take off, but once going it works great. You would think that lag would be reduced with that setup. Hmmm. So to compare the two will be interesting. So, it sounds like either way will be a lag on takeoff.
Anyway, all is well in CVT land. The turbo should be awesome!
Thread Starter
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4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
From: bristow va
Wow some really great information! thanks! I'll be looking into those products once they become available.. sorry I've been in AZ for the holidays, and today is teh first tiem I got back on to see the results of this thread, wow... So another major issue besides whether the engine and/or tranny will crap out is what would it all cost? How much would it cost to stick a turbo on it, and how much did the other mods cost? I mean if it would be just the same to grab an s then I'm not really going to bother though driving around dc is a much happier place with my cvt then a manual.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC area
Hey chollomo,
I'm also in DC with a CVT MC, and would not want to go to a stick. This traffic is really bad at times, and I have bad knees. My wife and I have also lived in Arizona and we have relatives there. Small world.
It's great to have these upgrade choices. Total cost of these performance alternatives can in the end cost as much or more than the difference between the MC and MCS, which is $3000 or more. But that cost may be cheaper than replacing our MC with an MCS, especially if already modded. The MCS is the way to go if you can handle the shifting, but many can't or don't want to shift.
I'm also in DC with a CVT MC, and would not want to go to a stick. This traffic is really bad at times, and I have bad knees. My wife and I have also lived in Arizona and we have relatives there. Small world.
It's great to have these upgrade choices. Total cost of these performance alternatives can in the end cost as much or more than the difference between the MC and MCS, which is $3000 or more. But that cost may be cheaper than replacing our MC with an MCS, especially if already modded. The MCS is the way to go if you can handle the shifting, but many can't or don't want to shift.