Drivetrain New R53 A2A Intercooler from DoS
...maybe for the same reasons already explained
This is a great question that comes up for us a lot at MINI festivals and events and from customer Q&A.
Direct Flow Intercoolers are interesting, and we looked to see if this type of design could be of benefit. However, you always need to take into account 2 factors:
1) The second half of any intercooler core does only 1/4 of the the work. Air gets warmer as it gets deeper into the core. The front half of the core does a great job, but the back half of the core suffers due to progressively increasing air temps.
2) Even though the airflow is 'direct', because this is a very thick core, there's a great amount of drag on the cooling air passing through. The drag on the incoming air actually increases the deeper that you go into the core.
When an exit scoop is involved, the first factor can likely be somewhat minimized, but that involves some substantial cutting to bonnet sheet metal.
-Clint
Direct Flow Intercoolers are interesting, and we looked to see if this type of design could be of benefit. However, you always need to take into account 2 factors:
1) The second half of any intercooler core does only 1/4 of the the work. Air gets warmer as it gets deeper into the core. The front half of the core does a great job, but the back half of the core suffers due to progressively increasing air temps.
2) Even though the airflow is 'direct', because this is a very thick core, there's a great amount of drag on the cooling air passing through. The drag on the incoming air actually increases the deeper that you go into the core.
When an exit scoop is involved, the first factor can likely be somewhat minimized, but that involves some substantial cutting to bonnet sheet metal.
-Clint
Personaly I would like to see the same design cues you used (copper fins, brass tubes, and the airfoils) on a flow through design like M7's DFIC, That would be one that I would spend a grand on.
Nothing against your I/C, just dont care much for the 90 degree turn method of airflow.
But it is a proven design, the "flow-thru" ones don't perform as well.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,836
Likes: 6
From: North Denver Colorado
MINICONCARNE, A front mount I/C and a flow through are 2 totaly different things. A flow through like the DFIC is about 7 inches thick but only 5 rows deep. A front mount I/C is designde the same as the one featured in this thread but, located in the front bumper or grille area positioned up and down (NOT flat like pancake).
MINI33342, Front mounts have prooven to out perform ANY top mount system, as far as cooling goes. There is nothing to heatsoak an I/C that is away from all the heat to start with,plus it grabs a whole lot more air over more surface area with no post I/C blockages to restrict airflow. Another good side effect would be that it would get rid of all those sharp almost 180 degree turns that the stock bullhorn setup makes.
MINI33342, Front mounts have prooven to out perform ANY top mount system, as far as cooling goes. There is nothing to heatsoak an I/C that is away from all the heat to start with,plus it grabs a whole lot more air over more surface area with no post I/C blockages to restrict airflow. Another good side effect would be that it would get rid of all those sharp almost 180 degree turns that the stock bullhorn setup makes.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco, CA
MINICONCARNE, A front mount I/C and a flow through are 2 totaly different things. A flow through like the DFIC is about 7 inches thick but only 5 rows deep. A front mount I/C is designde the same as the one featured in this thread but, located in the front bumper or grille area positioned up and down (NOT flat like pancake).
MINI33342, Front mounts have prooven to out perform ANY top mount system, as far as cooling goes. There is nothing to heatsoak an I/C that is away from all the heat to start with,plus it grabs a whole lot more air over more surface area with no post I/C blockages to restrict airflow. Another good side effect would be that it would get rid of all those sharp almost 180 degree turns that the stock bullhorn setup makes.
MINI33342, Front mounts have prooven to out perform ANY top mount system, as far as cooling goes. There is nothing to heatsoak an I/C that is away from all the heat to start with,plus it grabs a whole lot more air over more surface area with no post I/C blockages to restrict airflow. Another good side effect would be that it would get rid of all those sharp almost 180 degree turns that the stock bullhorn setup makes.
1) require removal of the AC condenser
2) require cutting & drilling.
3) add additional plumbing and volume to the charge air path
3) are part of aftermarket R53 turbocharging or supercharger systems that already necessitate the mods mentioned in item #2 (due to their redesigned charge air tubing designs).
I've liked the concept of a front mount ever since it was first introduced to the MINI community and I'm glad that you brought it up. I also think that they're great for cars that see mostly track time. However, it's just a more complicated mod than DoS wanted to get into.
-Clint
Clint, sounds like you did your homework. I know front mounts have been attempted before. Besides, this isn't about them, and hopefully we can see more updates on what you do sell.
.
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Upgraded front mount IC's are great if the car was originally designed as a front mount. However it's not a plug and play mod for the R53. The front mount units that have been designed up to this point do some or all of the following:
1) require removal of the AC condenser
2) require cutting & drilling.
3) add additional plumbing and volume to the charge air path
3) are part of aftermarket R53 turbocharging or supercharger systems that already necessitate the mods mentioned in item #2 (due to their redesigned charge air tubing designs).
I've liked the concept of a front mount ever since it was first introduced to the MINI community and I'm glad that you brought it up. I also think that they're great for cars that see mostly track time. However, it's just a more complicated mod than DoS wanted to get into.
-Clint
1) require removal of the AC condenser
2) require cutting & drilling.
3) add additional plumbing and volume to the charge air path
3) are part of aftermarket R53 turbocharging or supercharger systems that already necessitate the mods mentioned in item #2 (due to their redesigned charge air tubing designs).
I've liked the concept of a front mount ever since it was first introduced to the MINI community and I'm glad that you brought it up. I also think that they're great for cars that see mostly track time. However, it's just a more complicated mod than DoS wanted to get into.
-Clint
Upgraded front mount IC's are great if the car was originally designed as a front mount. However it's not a plug and play mod for the R53. The front mount units that have been designed up to this point do some or all of the following:
1) require removal of the AC condenser
2) require cutting & drilling.
3) add additional plumbing and volume to the charge air path
3) are part of aftermarket R53 turbocharging or supercharger systems that already necessitate the mods mentioned in item #2 (due to their redesigned charge air tubing designs).
I've liked the concept of a front mount ever since it was first introduced to the MINI community and I'm glad that you brought it up. I also think that they're great for cars that see mostly track time. However, it's just a more complicated mod than DoS wanted to get into.
-Clint
1) require removal of the AC condenser
2) require cutting & drilling.
3) add additional plumbing and volume to the charge air path
3) are part of aftermarket R53 turbocharging or supercharger systems that already necessitate the mods mentioned in item #2 (due to their redesigned charge air tubing designs).
I've liked the concept of a front mount ever since it was first introduced to the MINI community and I'm glad that you brought it up. I also think that they're great for cars that see mostly track time. However, it's just a more complicated mod than DoS wanted to get into.
-Clint
Thanks for the concise response. Some folks just need a bit of edumacating !
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco, CA
Our IC core manufacturer assures us that the production cores will ship this week. After then, we can do our last pressure drop tests/comparions on the refined production cores and endtanks -vs.- the stock and GP IC.
We don't want to base our final product performance claims on prototypes, so things have been stalled a tad. Many thanks for your patience. We're chomping at the bit to release these.
-Clint
We don't want to base our final product performance claims on prototypes, so things have been stalled a tad. Many thanks for your patience. We're chomping at the bit to release these.
-Clint
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 4
From: Yorktown, VA
This new design looks promising. There is alot more mass to the intercooler, as well as the heat disippation coating. In addition, it would also be nice to have a specially-designed deflector bolted on the top. The stock one does work in catching air to force it across the stock intercooler. Here's one of my favorite links to a DIY integrated deflector: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...6-post125.html.
In reviving an old thread on intercooler tests: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ing-tests.html. They tested five intercooler designs at the time, including the stock one. Unless you bought the GP intercooler, there was no real gain above the stock one. The stock intercooler has one of the best heat soak recovery periods out there.
To me, it's only worth getting an aftermarket intercooler if you do serious mods, such as a head and/or cam. Otherwise, you're better off just getting the stock intercooler coated. Here are some pictures of mine: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...05-post27.html. Here's a post with some links explaining the thermal coating: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...32-post43.html. I have that combined with the M7 Extreme Scoop.
Now, having said all this, I am planning on getting an upgraded head and cam next year. Once I do, and this new intercooler proves to make a difference, I will give it serious consideration.
In reviving an old thread on intercooler tests: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ing-tests.html. They tested five intercooler designs at the time, including the stock one. Unless you bought the GP intercooler, there was no real gain above the stock one. The stock intercooler has one of the best heat soak recovery periods out there.
To me, it's only worth getting an aftermarket intercooler if you do serious mods, such as a head and/or cam. Otherwise, you're better off just getting the stock intercooler coated. Here are some pictures of mine: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...05-post27.html. Here's a post with some links explaining the thermal coating: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...32-post43.html. I have that combined with the M7 Extreme Scoop.
Now, having said all this, I am planning on getting an upgraded head and cam next year. Once I do, and this new intercooler proves to make a difference, I will give it serious consideration.
Last edited by JumpingJackFlash; Nov 17, 2010 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Added notation about M7 Extreme Scoop
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco, CA
This new design looks promising. There is alot more mass to the intercooler, as well as the heat disippation coating. In addition, it would also be nice to have a specially-designed deflector bolted on the top. The stock one does work in catching air to force it across the stock intercooler. Here's one of my favorite links to a DIY integrated deflector: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...6-post125.html.
In reviving an old thread on intercooler tests: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ing-tests.html. They tested five intercooler designs at the time, including the stock one. Unless you bought the GP intercooler, there was no real gain above the stock one. The stock intercooler has one of the best heat soak recovery periods out there.
To me, it's only worth getting an aftermarket intercooler if you do serious mods, such as a head and/or cam. Otherwise, you're better off just getting the stock intercooler coated. Here are some pictures of mine: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...05-post27.html. Here's a post with some links explaining the thermal coating: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...32-post43.html. I have that combined with the M7 Extreme Scoop.
Now, having said all this, I am planning on getting an upgraded head and cam next year. Once I do, and this new intercooler proves to make a difference, I will give it serious consideration.
In reviving an old thread on intercooler tests: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ing-tests.html. They tested five intercooler designs at the time, including the stock one. Unless you bought the GP intercooler, there was no real gain above the stock one. The stock intercooler has one of the best heat soak recovery periods out there.
To me, it's only worth getting an aftermarket intercooler if you do serious mods, such as a head and/or cam. Otherwise, you're better off just getting the stock intercooler coated. Here are some pictures of mine: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...05-post27.html. Here's a post with some links explaining the thermal coating: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...32-post43.html. I have that combined with the M7 Extreme Scoop.
Now, having said all this, I am planning on getting an upgraded head and cam next year. Once I do, and this new intercooler proves to make a difference, I will give it serious consideration.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco, CA
Our core manufacturer packed our order poorly and 50% of our first production run arrived damaged. We contacted them and they sent replacements for the damaged cores. This order was packed slightly better but ALL of the replacement cores arrived damaged. 
Long story short, we've taken these guys behind the woodshed and told them that they need to adhere to DoS's shipping and packaging spec or we'll find another manufacturer. The parts that arrived un-damaged are fantastic! However, we don't want to have a bunch of folks with parts on backorder. This will only pass our frustration on to the customer.
Sit tight. I know that these are being released
way : later than planned, but we're still excited about our end result.
-Clint
Long story short, we've taken these guys behind the woodshed and told them that they need to adhere to DoS's shipping and packaging spec or we'll find another manufacturer. The parts that arrived un-damaged are fantastic!
However, we don't want to have a bunch of folks with parts on backorder. This will only pass our frustration on to the customer.Sit tight. I know that these are being released
way : later than planned, but we're still excited about our end result.-Clint
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco, CA
It's killing us too . . .
The replacement order of production cores are arriving next week.
We need to get them on our pressure drop testing setup, post the results, get these on the site and get these into the wanting public's hands as quickly as we can assemble them.
Patience is good, but this current experience in getting production parts to market is definitely killing us inside a little every day we're made to wait.
We need to get them on our pressure drop testing setup, post the results, get these on the site and get these into the wanting public's hands as quickly as we can assemble them.
Patience is good, but this current experience in getting production parts to market is definitely killing us inside a little every day we're made to wait.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco, CA
Thanks. We know good things will result, but we want to document our testing well and make sure that our quality remains top notch. It's a tall order every time we design and build parts, but SO worth it.