Peter has asked for the PB back.

The "Consumer Reports" version:

0) Installed on an 02/02 Build MINI Cooper 5-speed
1) I didn't notice any difference in "smoothness" or throttle responsiveness.
2) I didn't notice any difference in fuel economy, and I keep records.

This is not the product for my car. Some others have reported being happy
with the purchase, so your experience may vary from mine. Read Randy's
report for the horsepower curves during his testing, and his thoughts also.

You can PM me for more explicit thoughts since M7 is a sponsor of the board,
and Peter was such a great guy to let me try this product, I need to
self-censor my thoughts on the product.


_________________

 

Were you able to return your car completely to stock, or is the wiring harness hacked up? Why do you think others have reported gains? It is very unlike you to hold back on opinions, wassup?

 

if you are looking for a noticable difference in smothness and responce i would get pilos ignition system its pretty cheap and a very noticable difference
i live in az where i always have the ac on and i even helps with the ac lag
pm me if you want more specific info. the p b never made muck since to me im sorry it didnt work out for you :???:

 

>>Were you able to return your car completely to stock, or is the wiring harness hacked up?

The PB used three very nice crimp-on spade connectors, and I was
able to remove them and leave just small insulation cuts on the wires
going to the coil-pack.

I installed it by shoving the large outer coil-pack wire cover away from
the connector, so when I removed the crimp-on connectors, the outer
cover just slid bacl in place and covered up the small slits.

I don't expect any problems due to the tiny slits in the wire insulation.

I think you can try out this product and not worry about damaging
your stock electrical wiring.

> Why do you think others have reported gains?

Honestly, I think if someone spends $250 on a product, they WANT it
to do something. My personal opinion ONLY is that it's a placebo
effect.

And it is in the range of possibilities that an MCS would benefit more
from this product. I tested on an MC 5-speed.

> It is very unlike you to hold back on opinions, wassup?

Mark F. asked me to give more of a "just the facts-mam" type of post.

And I realize that I can **** people off, so I'm trying to be better.

 

I have an MC and PB too. I recently took my PB out for an upcoming schelduled service cause I didn't want the rep to give me any mouth.

I can't wait to put it back in--I noticed that much of a difference in mine.


_________________
-goin440 IB/IB MC

 

Trippy and all,

Can understand your dilemma about wanting to post your experiences and yet don't want to appear to bad mouth people. Not as easy as it might sound. Your posts didn't raise any eyebrows with me.

Have been corresponding privately with Minihune on the M-7 Plasma ignition system, but have been reluctant to post my thoughts to a broader audience until your post, Trippy.


Theoretically, the M-7 Plasma ignition system has it right. Modern engine combustion theory recommends a high current pulse type of spark discharge for optimum "combustion kernal" formation. It is the combination of the current and the voltage that puts electrical power into the A/F mixture to initiate the chemical reaction of the combustion process. The rapid high current pulse introduces a large amount of power over a short period of time and theoretically initiates an optimal "combustion kernal". The question rises whether the M-7 Plasma ignition system actually accomplishes what they claim. I simply don't know. Also, how much current and power is enough. Again, I don't know.

You might not have noticed any driveablility or performance improvement for a million and one reasons. The stock MCS ignition system is state of the art for engines in it's class and very little improvement is possible from ignition upgrades under ordinary operating conditions. However, some people report reduced stumble and hesitation and small power gains with ignition upgrades. The reasons for these reported improvements are likely that the ignition upgrade and the resultant voltage reserve is "solving" some problem in another area, i.e. ECU maping, throttle body variations, spark plug wear, tired plug wires, etc.

A source of confusion and unnecessary controversy on the M-7 type of ignition upgrade is essentially the debate over a short vs long spark duration. The above theory about short, high current spark qualities is the modern approach. The long spark duration theory is best applied to economy, (weak A/F mixture ratios) and anti-pollution engine operation. Modern engine management systems, like the MCS's, do a wonderful job of managing these considerations, and the optimum spark characteristics for many modern engines are closer to the M-7 Plasma theory.

I know what Trippy is experiencing. I have experienced no tangible "improvement" from installing my expensive MSD DIS-2 ignition system. I had to cut into my harness as well. However, the ignition reserve is there and I can bank on it. I expect reliable ignition under all circumstances.

A comment on the stock spark plug and ignition performance: The more "open" style spark plug, the Accel spark plugs offered in Pilo's ignition upgrade, and the Iridium series of spark plugs, in theory, offer the possibility of enhanced "combustion kernal" formation. The spark is directly exposed to a larger volume of A/F mixture and combution efficiency can be improved. The stock spark plug with it's four ground electrodes is designed for long service life and in theory will tend to shroud the A/F mixture more than the single electrode spark plug and reduce the volume of A/F mixture exposed to the spark.

The bottom line, don't expect major improvements from these ignition upgrades. However, there is the possibility to improve the margin of ignition reserve and efficiency with some of the ignition systems and spark plugs available today. This margin of improvement may translate into improved performance depending on the specific circumstances of engine operation.

Regards,

John Petrich in Seattle

 

We certainly are all entitled to our opinions and here is mine. From the moment I installed the PB there was a noticeable difference. The only other ignition upgrade I have are Jackson racing plug wires. The plugs are stock and have never been out of the car at 18k miles. I have let my mechanic drive the car and he noticed the difference as well and I was careful to not let on that I had done anything in that area before he drove the car. Horsepower and or torque gains may not be noticeable on the dyno but the car absolutely runs smoother. Its not even a question in my particular application it was that noticeable. I just got thru putting the jackson Racing header on this morning and with the added exhaust noise( no cat ) it is even clearer that the motor is now running smoother. Bottom line it works for me and there may be other ways to acheive the gains I got but not this easy or reversible if you need to for any reason such as a trip to the dealer. The big key in the install for me was disconnecting the battery for a good amount of time . I had to take longer than most as I had to remove my audio install which is over the battery in back.Perhaps that helped , I don't know.
It works,
I know it
EOM :smile:
Randy

 

maxmini,
Have you noticed any gains in fuel economy? (Has ANYONE?) This was the primary reason that this product caught my eye, but I'm referring mainly to an unsubstantiated post by MightyMiniz, which hinted at a double digit percentage increase in mpg. I have yet to see anyone else affirm the fuel economy improvement. I don't recall at this point if this claim was ever made my M7 themselves, or just by their dubious unofficial former MCO spokesperson.
_________________

 

maybe the sharper pulse and higher voltage allowed a better spark on your worn 18k plugs. That is the usual result.

 

Ignition Solutions -- the acutal maker claims improved MPG. I noticed a slight increase of 3-4mpg in my Cooper. With the mileage I do everyday (about 85 miles daily), it made a difference. As for performance, the biggest gain I noticed was in low rpm from about 1000-3000. Up high in rpms, minimal, if anything. At the strip, I noted I increased my trap speeds by a couple mphs and lowered my ETAs by a couple tenths---which I thought was pretty good considering its cheaper than all exhausts and some intakes which would do the same.

As people pile on the non-CARB mods, this PB (the only CARB cert ignition on the market?) might actually lower emissions because it sparks the waste gas as is exits. Also why the louder exhaust noted by some, including me.

 

>>maybe the sharper pulse and higher voltage allowed a better spark on your worn 18k plugs.

The only problem with that theory is that the PB produces a slower and lower voltage
spark, followed by another second spark.

It's neither sharper NOR higher voltage.

 

>>maxmini,
>>Have you noticed any gains in fuel economy? (Has ANYONE?) This was the primary reason that this product caught my eye, but I'm referring mainly to an unsubstantiated post by MightyMiniz, which hinted at a double digit percentage increase in mpg. I have yet to see anyone else affirm the fuel economy improvement. I don't recall at this point if this claim was ever made my M7 themselves, or just by their dubious unofficial former MCO spokesperson.

Thanks Petrich for your comments. I'm sure that maxmini feels there has been an improvement for his MINI.
I have had the M7 PB and the Pilo ignition full kit installed in my MCS with throttlebody, milltek header, Quicksilver exhaust and madness intake for about 5 weeks. My MCS was very very smooth before the ignition upgrades with no problems whatsoever in any rpm and in any gear. I could never make the stumble or yo-yo happen even with much effort.

After the ignition upgrades (I did M7 PB first for about 10-14 days alone), I have yet to detect any improvement of any type in performance or gas mileage under any conditions. I also have had no negative effects to the upgrades and the car is as smooth as ever. I did not add the upgrades with the thought a some big power gain ,with the need to cure the stumble, or with the idea that it would pay for itself with improved mpgs.

I am with Petrich in that I think it is a reasonable ignition system upgrade that gives a MINI (maybe the MCS a little more benefit) a better and more efficient means of spark. If you get the other gains mentioned then fantastic. If it doesn't lead to any other negatives then great. I'm in this upgrading for my MCS in the long haul and pick and choose my upgrades carefully and live with them. I support pilo and Peter at M7's efforts to bring us MINI owners reliable sound products and that is why I continue to support them. If no one buys the products and tests them objectively and subjectively (from the end user's point of view) and if these creative people have no reason to continue their development of upgrades for the MINI where would all of us be? I'm keeping both my ignition upgrades and I am happy to had been one of the first to try them out. I appreciate all of the work that Pilo and Peter have done to bring these products to market-thanks guys.

Finally if budget is a consideration then the pilo upgrade kit for about $140 makes more sense to do first. Once you have most of your big ticket upgrades done and you want something that will work with the pilo upgrade for the ignition system then consider the very cool M7 Plasma booster (I love the way it looks) Can I get different lights for each of those three?

 

Ok fill us in then. Why do the upgrades? People are doing the ignition upgrade to smooth the throttle response, cure their stumble and/or improve fuel economy. If you don't have the stumble, claim your throttle is smooth as can be and don't care about mpg then why in the world did you get this product? Even if it was for the good of testing MINI products, did doesn't make sense b/c you didn't have any of the issues that these systems were designed to fix! Please explain if you will, thanks!

 

>>>>
>>Ok fill us in then. Why do the upgrades? People are doing the ignition upgrade to smooth the throttle response, cure their stumble and/or improve fuel economy. If you don't have the stumble, claim your throttle is smooth as can be and don't care about mpg then why in the world did you get this product? Even if it was for the good of testing MINI products, did doesn't make sense b/c you didn't have any of the issues that these systems were designed to fix! Please explain if you will, thanks!

For me my MCS is my fun project. Something for me. I can do anything I want and I will live with my decisions. Did I really "need" to do the ignition upgrades? No. In fact do you really need to upgrade anything on your MC or MCS? Not really. Not enough people drive their stock car long enough to really get to know their MINI well. Sure you can do more with most performance upgrades but do you really need it and for what. For street driving?, I don't think you need much more than a stock MINI. Appearance upgrades are a matter of taste and choice.

And I did explain why I bought them and that I am not returning any products. I want to support development of MINI upgrades and I think that Pilo and M7 are both good developers that I want to support their ongoing efforts.

I did no harm to my MINI or performance. I cannot easily measure the gains. Maybe I should drive the car really hard to find out but I have not had the chance yet. I don't have access to a dyno before and after. The car is doing great and everything is working very well.

I'm having fun, No regrets.


_________________
ALOHA

 

Works for me, minihune. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

my understanding of the spark event was that resistance paths to ground through deposit buildups on the plug insulator trickled off current and therefore dropped the gap voltage. The idea behind capacitor discharge ignitions was to send a quick pulse through the coil with a sufficiently fast rise time to build gap voltage before leakdown. The first multiple spark ignitions were still fast rising pulse outputs, but they just kept on repeating the pulses, so not only would they fire a dirty plug, but they would prolong the spark event, presumably aiding more complete combustion.

What is different about the PB?

It would be interesting to see if one sees an improvement with the PB in a car with new plugs.

 

i agree with minihune, If you don't need the upgrades-- don't . Ive seen his car and i like the way he did. I'm for both the performance and the power, if I can get a 2-3 miles per gallons with the prices of gas in Hawaii... you bet......
Good job Doc.....

 

jlm,

You are correct about the characteristics of a CD ignition and their resistance, so to speak, to cylinder misfire caused by spark plug deposits. With the CD ignition, there is no sustaining voltage across the spark plug and no "plasma" phase to the ignition process. A complicated subject that a lot of people don't understand.

The concept behind the M-7 PB ignition system is to mix a capacitor discharge type of spark, i.e. faster rise time, high current pulse, with the sustained voltage characteristic of an inductive ignition system to cause the "plasma" phase of the ignition process. They claim to achieve this desirable state by using an ordinary inductive ignition system and placing a capacitor sub-system next to the spark plug. The capacitive sub-system must first charge and then discharge across the spark plug and the remaining energy in the coil continues to sustain the "plasma" phase of the ignition process. A good idea IF it works.

Formula 1 ignition and engine management systems try to achieve the same result as the M-7 PB with a fancy dual ignition system. One part of the ignition system has a conventional single strike CD ignition module that initiates combustion, that is combined with a 1200V power supply piggybacked to the spark plug to provide the sustaining current for the "plasma" phase of the ignition process. Those clever people then monitor the "plasma" phase with high speed digital sampling via the spark plug and with wave recognition algorithms detect detonation and initiate engine management adjustments. What they have in effect is a knock sensor in each cylinder and can tune each cylinder individually thru the engine management system.

There is a lot to the concept behind the M-7 PB. The big question is whether the M-7 PB delivers on that concept. Many people report operational improvements, but these improvements, real though they may be, shouldn't be confused with proof of concept.

Regards,

John Petrich in Seattle

 

Trippy,

I commented in another thread that I have had a very positive experience with the plasma booster in my 2003 MCS (15% pulley, EvoTech ECU upgrade, Noloigy wires, wide throttle body, Mania header and Borla cat-back). Again, there is no question that in my car, the subjective throttle response is much smoother. For you to suggest that many of us who have had good results with the plasma booster are experiencing the "placebo effect" is not only inappropriate but a bit disingenuous. Perhaps your post could have been phrased with a less authoritative overtone, since I don't believe anyone has conducted a controlled trial using rigorous scientific methodology with this product in either the MC or MCS. Our respective experiences are anecdotal, and they should be taken as such.

Thanks for your consideration...

_________________
Bob W.
--- Life is too short to be taken too seriously

 

>>I commented in another thread that I have had a very positive experience with the plasma booster in my 2003 MCS (15% pulley, EvoTech ECU upgrade, Noloigy wires, wide throttle body, Mania header and Borla cat-back). Again, there is no question that in my car, the subjective throttle response is much smoother. For you to suggest that many of us who have had good results with the plasma booster are experiencing the "placebo effect" is not only inappropriate but a bit disingenuous. Perhaps your post could have been phrased with a less authoritative overtone, since I don't believe anyone has conducted a controlled trial using rigorous scientific methodology with this product in either the MC or MCS. Our respective experiences are anecdotal, and they should be taken as such.

RECOOP,
When you say you perceive that your throttle response is smoother, I believe you. That's actually a good thing because those of us that have a similar type of setup and less than smooth response could potentially benefit from an ignition upgrade (or ECU upgrade for what it is worth).

If you read my post careful I do mention that I have the upgraded 61mm throttlebody and never had any of the hesitation or stumble problems.

Petrich,
Thanks for your comments.

Placebo effect? I try my best to resist but our world is painted by our own perception of it. It is part of the subjective human experience to be caught in the placebo effect. But oh so blissful when it does occur.

We could conduct randomized controls and a double blinded study but few would let us borrow their MINIs for the full duration of the experimental trial. This is not the same as Solo II at the monthly SCCA event.

 

>>Ignition Solutions -- the acutal maker claims improved MPG. I noticed a slight increase of 3-4mpg in my Cooper. With the mileage I do everyday (about 85 miles daily), it made a difference. As for performance, the biggest gain I noticed was in low rpm from about 1000-3000. Up high in rpms, minimal, if anything. At the strip, I noted I increased my trap speeds by a couple mphs and lowered my ETAs by a couple tenths---which I thought was pretty good considering its cheaper than all exhausts and some intakes which would do the same.
>>
>>As people pile on the non-CARB mods, this PB (the only CARB cert ignition on the market?) might actually lower emissions because it sparks the waste gas as is exits. Also why the louder exhaust noted by some, including me.

Nology is also a carb certified product.

 

>> The concept behind the M-7 PB ignition system is to mix a capacitor discharge type of spark, i.e. faster rise time, high current pulse, with the sustained voltage characteristic of an inductive ignition system to cause the "plasma" phase of the ignition process.

The problem I have is that on ignition solutions own
website, they show before and after pictures of the
actual spark voltage and current waveforms.

They show a lower-voltage, lower-current initial spark
followed by many many very low voltage and current
secondary sparks.

There has been a lot of talk about what is called
"Peak-to-peak" current, but I think that's
bogus because you just get two sparks, not
one larger spark.

So, It still doesn't fly for me.

 

I've been following along through a few different threads about this product. So far I've garnered the information that it 1) might smooth out the throttle response, 2) might give slightly better gas mileage, 3) might get rid of stumble, and 4) might slightly enhance performance. The only guaranteed thing I've heard that the PB will do is take $250.00 of my hard earned cash out of my pocket!

When I put out that kind of money, it's going to go on something that's not based on "perceived", "subjective", or "imagined". The gains that most people have been talking about could just as easily been caused by the season changing and the average temperatures cooling off. I know my MCS runs smoother and faster now than it did 6 weeks ago. I also know that this is just from the average temp dropping 10 to 12 degrees during that time.

Some have mentioned actual testing. The only one I've seen, so far, has come from RandyBMC. Those results were less that stellar, to say the least! I'd be happy to see other people's test results, if they were posted, though I don't imagine they'd be to much different, from what I read in the forums.

As was mentioned by another poster the development of new products for our cars is appreciated. I, however, can't offer much support to ideas that don't offer much more than ease of removal and pretty flashing lights.

 

>>>>maybe the sharper pulse and higher voltage allowed a better spark on your worn 18k plugs.
>>
>>The only problem with that theory is that the PB produces a slower and lower voltage
>>spark, followed by another second spark.
>>
>>It's neither sharper NOR higher voltage.
>>

Slower, no. Lower yes. The PB actually works by producing a larger diameter spark, which in effect lowers the voltage needed to spark. There was a whole write-up on here a while back... letme find....

 

>> The PB actually works by producing a larger diameter spark, which in effect lowers the voltage needed to spark.

OK, I've been through all this before with Peter.

I might make Mark F. mad, but this is simply

SNAKE OIL

There is no way you get a larger diameter spark out of a lower
voltage, lower current input to the coil. Sorry, but no way.