Is anyone here in NAMLAND willing to speculate as to whether BMW might (some day) really open up the secrets of the Siemens ECU to tuners of the '02-'06, since our Tritec is out of production? For example, perhaps once the '06 factory warranties are expired? Maybe some time in 2010? Thoughts?

 

it's just extra work for something that's not in the inventory... Also, I think BMW still uses decendants of that ECU in some products, and the "programming style" tends to progress through the versions, so knowing how it's done in that would would give hackers insight into how current product is programmed.

Don't hold your breath. There's a bigger chance of leaks from the aftermarket tuners and hackers than from BMW/MINI.

Matt

 

Agree with all of Matt's points

 

It would cost them time/money, and expose them to legal liability.

Why would you think they might?

 

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

I can see the likelihood of there still being proprietary value in programming equally proprietary future ECUs, even though the Tritec is no more.

OldRick -- I'm not a legal genius, but I've tried, and I can't think of any particular sort of legal liabilities to which this might expose BMW. Could you please elaborate? I just don't see how it would be any different than any other marque sharing such information? Just curious. Thanks.

 

you see so many programmers for Fords and GMs is that for the right price, they will sell the code to aftermarket companies. It's not cheap at all. But then if you look at the number of Duramax Diesels or Mustangs or GM cars out there, there are enough customers to recoup the investment and make a profit. For the Mini, there just aren't enough cars sold to justify it. Unless you want to spend $1000 for a tuner gizmo. (Rough guess).

So we're left with what we've got.....

Matt

 

This ones a touchy subject i think. Im not a hacker and i am definately not a tuning expert. I work for BMW and i can shed possibly mabe roughly a little insight if it helps. I know BMW DMEs ( digital motor electronics ) not minis. True that they use the smae operating softwares and share alot of technologies butthey are different animals...untill you start getting into R56s and such. Take the 1999-2005 3 series ( E46 ). they use a DME called the MS43. This DME is a pretty reliable unit but has programming issues. When a technician hooks up the SSS ( software service station ) in order to program it it has to be 100% correct. you have to have a deutronics battery charger set to 14.8 volts exactly and some vehicles you must disconnect the transmission control module during programming or the DME may fail. if it does fail you have to send it to New Jersey to be manually programmed and sent back to you. This happens to this day. You think that a vehicle built in 1999 should have all the bugs worked out buy now but nope. BMW always comes out with new programming verisons named ( progman ). progman version 30.1,31.0,31.2,32.0 and the list goes on and on. each version contains supposedly better operating softwares then the previous designed to fix "bugs" or the ways vehicles operate. an example is brand new X3s with the N52KP engine shift gears like a semi truck. the newer versions of proman correct this to a degree. BMW is constantly coming out with new progmans and DMEs such as MS43, MS45.1, MSS60, and the list goes on for ever. with the amount of information that BMW puts into each programming version they dont want to risk someone being able to crack the "code" and tinker with the vehicles. I believe that to this day they still find new things and still use alot of their older technology "facelifted" into newer vehicles, so giving out the rights to tinker with operating software doesnt seem like something BMW may do in the near future.

 

The problem is, as we've seen in other threads, the demographics. Over on the EVO forums the owners are younger/more tech savvy and aggressive. They have hacked away at the ECU to the point that it is basically open.
How many MINI owners are going to sift through hex code and get the tools to emulate the ECU to map the entire thing?

Anything is possible if you put your mind and time into it.

 

Re. legal liability, hypothesize this:

- MINI publishes the code,

- it has a) unnoticed bugs, or, b) they mangle a bit or two in publishing the file, or, the code is actually perfect, but,

- some moron in California tries to use it or monkey with it, and pops an engine or causes "sudden acceleration" and hurts someone (like the suits against Audi several years ago),

- he's in California, so he sues MINI for millions for contributing to what his own stupidity created...

I don't think you will ever see an auto manufacturer Open-Source the code. And, back to Matt's comment, "Why would they?" as it profits them not at all, costs money to do so, and exposes them to legal action...

 

but I can tell you for sure, that morons aren't limited to California....

Anyway, there is no upside for BMW. Really, if one wants to go this way, tear out the factory ECU and go MOTEC or Megasquirt and roll your own. Then you have absolute control on EVERYTHING!!!!

Matt

 

It's just so much easier to sue for absurd reasons in the People's Republic of CA - too many lawyers, apparently...

P.S. - I lived there for 28 years...

 

CA gets a rep as a liberal whack job of a state, but we gave the nation both Reagan and Nixon.... We're more bi-polar than just liberal....

Matt

 

Jhud - Thanks. I can see the proprietary nature of the code much better from the examples you have cited.

OldRick - I suppose the scenarios you've raised are certainly possible; but jeez, do you have some sort of beef against CA?

 

Nothing against CA - I lived there for a long time. It just seems to be the place where a lot of whacko lawsuits get filed, and, with more than 11% of the population of the US, there are a lot of morons there.

 

but there's also Silicon Valley, with a lot of the entrepenurial spirit of the US as well. Somehow, when it comes to comments about CA, I don't hear the good extolled as much as the bad....

FWIW, yes we have 11% of the population, but I really wonder of morons are a statistically higher or lower percentage of the population. Overall, I think lower.

CA has a lower per capita energy use growth while a higher overall per capita GDP growth as well. Very moronic indeed.

Matt

 

What's really needed is a company like AEM to step up and offer a 100% open replacement stand alone ECU. They already make a bunch of ECUs for the Japanese import scene.

 

but there are so many more of those cars than Minis..... I think it's a long shot.


Matt

 

If it's a standalone you want, check the other threads. RMW is working on a standalone for the MINI's. To my knowledge there's one hurdle left but you'd have to contact Jan for the real scoop.

 

 

Thanks for the post. IIRC, it was variables like these that basically killed Ross-Tech's "BIM-COM" version of their popular VAG-COM (for VW/Audi products) a few years ago.

 

I'm glad that I ran across this post.

I have damaged my ECU, _long story_, but I was "told" that I could buy an ECU from a wrecked car and have it reprogrammed for my car.

MINI said no can do. They "say" that a VIN can only be uploaded to the ECU EPROM one time. No "re-burn". I call BS, but the FSEs are saying it can't be done. I think it is BMW saying, they need to make more money and not allowing it to be done. A new ECU from the dealer runs approx. $1300 - plus $200 programing fee.

Does anyone have any info on the Immobilizer system that is used in MINIs DME? I'd like to take the Immob chip out of mine and install it in the salvage one. Here is a link to better explain what I am thinking. I know that it for an Audi, but the same theory applies. Ford, GM, etc, even VAG, can get it done, why not a MINI?

Any help or pointers to the direction to take will be greatly appreciated.

Request: Please don't start a "you shouldn't have damaged it" speech. I know. I just need to fix it without going bankrupt.

 

I think I read somewhere that the ECU can be "wiped" and reprogrammed fresh, but someone with a GT1 or equiv would have to comment for sure....

Your best bet is to talk to some shops that have high end BMW diagnostics to see what they can do... Near where I live, the Portola Valley Garage has the right tools, if it can be done, to do it. Anyway, good luck and let us know what you find out....

Matt

 

I keep hearing that from people on the outside.

Now, I have talked to a few techs that are very knowledgeable, but say that the dealer is the only way. But I don't know if they have the "fancy" "stuff" that you refer too.

I even went as far as to find an ECU that has the same model number, is in the same build month, and within 1000 units of production.

I understand the whole security side of this, but when you have the car, the owner, and all keys physically in one place, I don't think this falls into an ethics category. (Maybe that was an irrelevant comment, but i'm just a confused and irked about it.)


EDIT: I forgot to add. Yes the ECU can be wiped like you mention, just not the VIN. All of the settings, options, etc can be.

 

Why don't you give a call to Portola Valley Garage to see what they say? I honestly don't know the answer.... www.pvgarage.com

It's worth a shot....

Matt

 

I agree with Matt. I know of a indie shop in NJ that has a diagnostic computer that lets them reprogram many (if not all) of the "computer functions" in a MINI (follow me home lights, etc). Not sure if it will do what you need, though... I do know even he had to go through a VW dealer to get the ECU immobilizer function deactivated in a Fiero/VR6 conversion he built, so there are obviously limits to what the aftermarket diagnostics can do. Good luck...