Drivetrain Turbo Manifold build...
The datalogging is great, you can't beat it. For a hands on guy like I am, it is perfect without having to go to a full stand alone and the headaches that go along with that. I spent a few weeks logging and editing tuning files. I then ran down to Helix and spent some hours on the dyno, but for some bizarre crazy reason it wouldnt pull full boost in 4th gear. It wouldnt pull over 18lbs, then it started to drop. I pressure tested it right there on the dyno and couldnt find any substantial leaks. I called it a day and drove home to tear it apart when I had the time. That took me about 3 months to get around to...lol I tore it completely down, and nothing, not a dam thing wrong. I put it all back together and it pulls 28lbs now. Go figure, no idea. I have a dyno 5 minutes from my house, so I plan on hitting that up as soon as the temps and humidity return to somewhat normal. The front mount IC though works better than I could imagine in this heat. The outlet side is cool to touch when I park it. I need to check the TMAP in the logs to see what kind of temps it's seeing.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Greenville, SC && Columbia, SC
Questions :)
Ok first off, I love your build and am really impressed with the quality!
I've been more than considering this kind of build for my 05 mcs. I just have a couple questions.
1. First things first I guess, is there any way at all that I could get my hands on those manifold measurements? So I could send them off to a shop and have a manifold made.
2. In hindsight do you think you would stick with the same turbo? Would you go smaller/larger or a different brand?
3. Are you happy with the tuning system you're using? What changes do you think you would make? (I'm about 2 miles from a dyno so I'm curious)
4. When it comes to internals, what would you think is necessary? If I crack open the engine I will want to do as much work as I can to it.
5. How are the horsepower gains? And is it still capable of daily driving? (with gas mileage, torque steer, noise pollution, emissions etc..)
I would love to get some feedback from a guy with some experience like you!
I have done my fair share of american muscle modifications, but the MINI is a new animal to me. Look forward to hearing from you!
Thanks!
Cameron
I've been more than considering this kind of build for my 05 mcs. I just have a couple questions.
1. First things first I guess, is there any way at all that I could get my hands on those manifold measurements? So I could send them off to a shop and have a manifold made.
2. In hindsight do you think you would stick with the same turbo? Would you go smaller/larger or a different brand?
3. Are you happy with the tuning system you're using? What changes do you think you would make? (I'm about 2 miles from a dyno so I'm curious)
4. When it comes to internals, what would you think is necessary? If I crack open the engine I will want to do as much work as I can to it.
5. How are the horsepower gains? And is it still capable of daily driving? (with gas mileage, torque steer, noise pollution, emissions etc..)
I would love to get some feedback from a guy with some experience like you!
I have done my fair share of american muscle modifications, but the MINI is a new animal to me. Look forward to hearing from you!Thanks!
Cameron
Ok first off, I love your build and am really impressed with the quality!
I've been more than considering this kind of build for my 05 mcs. I just have a couple questions.
1. First things first I guess, is there any way at all that I could get my hands on those manifold measurements? So I could send them off to a shop and have a manifold made.
A. I can make you one.
2. In hindsight do you think you would stick with the same turbo? Would you go smaller/larger or a different brand?
A. I would go smaller gt 2871 in t25 housing. There is more room on the manifold flange if you use 1.25" pipe then 1.5" which is used for a t03 in the larger frame turbos.
3. Are you happy with the tuning system you're using? What changes do you think you would make? (I'm about 2 miles from a dyno
A. A full stand alone would be best, but it does work very well and gives me a lot more freedom then I've had in the past.
4. When it comes to internals, what would you think is necessary? If I crack open the engine I will want to do as much work as I can to it.
A. Honestly I am running a stock bottom end with over 29psi. Depends on how you drive it. The concenus is pistons at least due to small upper ring landings failing. I am running a large port head with larger valves and run a wideband and EGT guage and keep it in check and haven't had any issues due to that.
5. How are the horsepower gains? And is it still capable of daily driving? (with gas mileage, torque steer, noise pollution, emissions etc..)
A. HP is fine, torque steer is bad, but I also have a quaife lsd to help. My power is all up top, so it really isn't that bad in daily driving. It is loud when you are on it, as in the turbo is trying to suck the paint off a barn loud when you are wot, but normal under normal load driving. Emissions is a bust due to check engine light. I haven't found a way around that yet, other than my state says if you run under 5k miles a year you are exempt. It should be possible to rewrite the code in the ecu if someone figures it out.
I would love to get some feedback from a guy with some experience like you! I have done my fair share of american muscle modifications, but the MINI is a new animal to me. Look forward to hearing from you!
Thanks!
Cameron
I've been more than considering this kind of build for my 05 mcs. I just have a couple questions.
1. First things first I guess, is there any way at all that I could get my hands on those manifold measurements? So I could send them off to a shop and have a manifold made.
A. I can make you one.
2. In hindsight do you think you would stick with the same turbo? Would you go smaller/larger or a different brand?
A. I would go smaller gt 2871 in t25 housing. There is more room on the manifold flange if you use 1.25" pipe then 1.5" which is used for a t03 in the larger frame turbos.
3. Are you happy with the tuning system you're using? What changes do you think you would make? (I'm about 2 miles from a dyno
A. A full stand alone would be best, but it does work very well and gives me a lot more freedom then I've had in the past.
4. When it comes to internals, what would you think is necessary? If I crack open the engine I will want to do as much work as I can to it.
A. Honestly I am running a stock bottom end with over 29psi. Depends on how you drive it. The concenus is pistons at least due to small upper ring landings failing. I am running a large port head with larger valves and run a wideband and EGT guage and keep it in check and haven't had any issues due to that.
5. How are the horsepower gains? And is it still capable of daily driving? (with gas mileage, torque steer, noise pollution, emissions etc..)
A. HP is fine, torque steer is bad, but I also have a quaife lsd to help. My power is all up top, so it really isn't that bad in daily driving. It is loud when you are on it, as in the turbo is trying to suck the paint off a barn loud when you are wot, but normal under normal load driving. Emissions is a bust due to check engine light. I haven't found a way around that yet, other than my state says if you run under 5k miles a year you are exempt. It should be possible to rewrite the code in the ecu if someone figures it out.
I would love to get some feedback from a guy with some experience like you!
I have done my fair share of american muscle modifications, but the MINI is a new animal to me. Look forward to hearing from you!Thanks!
Cameron
Neutral
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: harrisburg PA
I just saw your vid on youtube and was reading through this thread...at the very end I realized you live in Colonial park and I probably passed you a couple of times haha. really clean build. Any updates?
Hey Jonny!
Just driving it, no real new updates other than I am running 32 lbs of boost. You are more than welcome to stop by and check it out if you like when your in the area. I am just in the middle of building another engine for another MCS at the moment.
Just driving it, no real new updates other than I am running 32 lbs of boost. You are more than welcome to stop by and check it out if you like when your in the area. I am just in the middle of building another engine for another MCS at the moment.
Peace Keeper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,747
Likes: 1
From: Defiance, Ohio
Cole,
Its been some time since I have been hanging around the forum and just wanted to see how it was going. From the above I can tell the car is still going strong for you.
Did you end up using the FX600 twin plate like you had stated earlier or did you go with a different one?
If you have the twin plate, how does it drive?
I am finally getting ready to build my conversion out.
PM me and I will send you my email address so we can talk. I would love to pick your brain on some stuff.
Thanks,
Chris
Its been some time since I have been hanging around the forum and just wanted to see how it was going. From the above I can tell the car is still going strong for you.
Did you end up using the FX600 twin plate like you had stated earlier or did you go with a different one?
If you have the twin plate, how does it drive?
I am finally getting ready to build my conversion out.
PM me and I will send you my email address so we can talk. I would love to pick your brain on some stuff.
Thanks,
Chris
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 13
From: Inman, SC
I'm not sure when Cole was last active, but I dont think he runs a full shop anymore. (not sure, but I think I remember him saying that somewhere)
Not saying he wouldnt be willing to make you a "kit" but when doing one-off builds like his or mine it would be a headache to make another one "bolt on" as we had to cut and do so much stuff.
Hell he had to cut his bumper, remove AC, weld an inlet and an outlet onto his driver side crush tube.. list goes on and on.
Even if you could make a kit, you (personally) would have to be quite handy and technical as well (and not be afraid to rip, cut, and drill into your car), send your car to him to fabricate on, or send A LOT of your stock parts to him to modify.
Just my .02
Not saying he wouldnt be willing to make you a "kit" but when doing one-off builds like his or mine it would be a headache to make another one "bolt on" as we had to cut and do so much stuff.
Hell he had to cut his bumper, remove AC, weld an inlet and an outlet onto his driver side crush tube.. list goes on and on.
Even if you could make a kit, you (personally) would have to be quite handy and technical as well (and not be afraid to rip, cut, and drill into your car), send your car to him to fabricate on, or send A LOT of your stock parts to him to modify.
Just my .02
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 13
From: Inman, SC
well in all honesty there is ~4-600 worth of metal in one of those manifolds (cast stainless bends are pricey, as are laser or water jet cut flanges (as they are custom made for the mini seeing as no one stocks them)
And tig welding is a specialty.
$800 is pretty reasonable seeing as companies like Full Race charge 960+ for theirs depending on the complexity. (something like these would be in the 11-1200 range)
Shame to choke off flow to a $2000 turbo by using a cast log manifold
And tig welding is a specialty.
$800 is pretty reasonable seeing as companies like Full Race charge 960+ for theirs depending on the complexity. (something like these would be in the 11-1200 range)
Shame to choke off flow to a $2000 turbo by using a cast log manifold
I'm not saying that it's not worth it in general; I'm saying for me, today, it's not worth it. Tubular manifolds are, as you said, quite expensive for the MINI because they're uncommon. A car with better aftermarket support wouldn't call for such a steep price.
PS: You're one of the very few spending $2k on a turbo (oil-less; ball hard).
PPS: I made 312whp on my SR20DET with a GT28 and Cast Log Mani. Not too shabby for a small, spartan set-up.
PS: You're one of the very few spending $2k on a turbo (oil-less; ball hard).
PPS: I made 312whp on my SR20DET with a GT28 and Cast Log Mani. Not too shabby for a small, spartan set-up.
well in all honesty there is ~4-600 worth of metal in one of those manifolds (cast stainless bends are pricey, as are laser or water jet cut flanges (as they are custom made for the mini seeing as no one stocks them)
And tig welding is a specialty.
$800 is pretty reasonable seeing as companies like Full Race charge 960+ for theirs depending on the complexity. (something like these would be in the 11-1200 range)
Shame to choke off flow to a $2000 turbo by using a cast log manifold
And tig welding is a specialty.
$800 is pretty reasonable seeing as companies like Full Race charge 960+ for theirs depending on the complexity. (something like these would be in the 11-1200 range)
Shame to choke off flow to a $2000 turbo by using a cast log manifold
...
...
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Northeast Pennsylvania
I know this has been a dead thread for a number of years, but I'm starting the process of converting my '06 r53 over to a turbo since my m45 is starting to die (typical water pump pto failure) and was wondering if anyone had any more information on using Bytetronik FA53 to do this conversion? I noticed it mentioned that the OP had to unplug a map sensor and run strictly off the tmap, is this because of an overboost situation? I'm only planning on running a gt2860rs at 18psi so I'm hoping I won't have any major issues with this too.
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 13
From: Inman, SC
if you want to keep your boost lower, and only run the TMAP it is possible, but I'd stick south of 250whp and have a very conservative tune.
It is possible, I just had issues with fueling consistency when I used FA53 as there is a lot that was not well documented or understood. (remember, they were decoding and translating the stock ecu.. and siemens / bosch / whoever made it didn't leave comment lines on the code..
So most of the maps are 'we changed this value in this random table we found and this output changed, so it must be this' , which is logical and all well and good but there was, for me, always a gremlin in the background somewhere that would change values and send me a little rich or a little lean.
And that culminated in a 'lean' swing to 13.1 AFR at ~7000 rpm and it instantly melted through a piston.
I then bought a vipec... (which is quite expensive mind you... ) but now i know what the ecu is doing, why it is doing it, and don't have to worry about any random ugly bits raising their head from a software standpoint.
It is possible, I just had issues with fueling consistency when I used FA53 as there is a lot that was not well documented or understood. (remember, they were decoding and translating the stock ecu.. and siemens / bosch / whoever made it didn't leave comment lines on the code..
So most of the maps are 'we changed this value in this random table we found and this output changed, so it must be this' , which is logical and all well and good but there was, for me, always a gremlin in the background somewhere that would change values and send me a little rich or a little lean.
And that culminated in a 'lean' swing to 13.1 AFR at ~7000 rpm and it instantly melted through a piston.
I then bought a vipec... (which is quite expensive mind you... ) but now i know what the ecu is doing, why it is doing it, and don't have to worry about any random ugly bits raising their head from a software standpoint.
6th Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,607
Likes: 315
From: Arnold, MO.
^^ This^^
While it is possible to run off the OEM ECU, the above issues do occur.
Get in touch with the ByteTronik guys and ask them, they will be able to tell you what, if any, improvements have been made in figuring out the solutions to the issues in the last couple of years.
They'll shoot you straight on if they can help or not.
While it is possible to run off the OEM ECU, the above issues do occur.
Get in touch with the ByteTronik guys and ask them, they will be able to tell you what, if any, improvements have been made in figuring out the solutions to the issues in the last couple of years.
They'll shoot you straight on if they can help or not.
Last edited by BlwnAway; Aug 16, 2016 at 03:09 PM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Northeast Pennsylvania
This is the kind of feedback I've been looking for, thank you. I did contact Bytetronik and I'm still waiting on a reply back about some questions I had. In the old days we would decode from scratch by following path values in the hex code data, and after a while of seeing patterns and what addresses they pointed to, we could figure out what they actually controlled. It was also a lot simpler than what Siemans was using for my r53 though, CAN is a whole new animal.
I really wanted to shoot for 280hp at 18psi (which should be pretty darn close depending on BSFC and how accurate the compressor map is) with solid tuning. But if all FA53 does is control sub maps in order to influence the overall output, that's obviously not the route I want to go.
That being said, any other tips/tricks for making this all work together aside from the ecu aspect? From my research this is definitely not a straight forward conversion like many cars!
I really wanted to shoot for 280hp at 18psi (which should be pretty darn close depending on BSFC and how accurate the compressor map is) with solid tuning. But if all FA53 does is control sub maps in order to influence the overall output, that's obviously not the route I want to go.
That being said, any other tips/tricks for making this all work together aside from the ecu aspect? From my research this is definitely not a straight forward conversion like many cars!
6th Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,607
Likes: 315
From: Arnold, MO.
Just be advised, it's NOT an inexpensive undertaking, you can't just swap over r56 parts, unless you find a partially completed project that someone has given up on, all of the plumbing, intake and exhaust manifolds has to be custom fab'd, there never was an actual kit.
Last edited by BlwnAway; Aug 16, 2016 at 07:02 PM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Northeast Pennsylvania
I realize it won't be easy, and I'm not actually looking to do this as a bolt on like most on here do, I'm fabricating 99% of the pieces required. I'm actually taking a slightly more creative route and using an adapter plate for the exhaust manifold and going from the tritec pattern to a Honda D-series pattern (oddly enough they're a very close match for the ports). Intake manifold will be the same, aluminum plate welded to the intake and tapped and threaded, water pump/idler is going to be standard r50 fare, and I'm using the r53 alternator with the r50 pulley (somethings about connectors being different, I'll find out though). Downpipe is standard fare for me, as well as the piping for a front mount. I prefer the custom work building it myself over kits anyway, it's more fun to create. The tuning is just my main concern really.
As far as adaptations that everyone keeps complaining about, are they referring to LTFT and STFT as well as timing control due to knock suppression? If that's the major points that people have issues with, then really that's a non-issue for me because I've always tuned around those adaptations in my past cars and customer's cars. Even from what I've seen of the factory JCW rom in WinOLS it looks like the torque tables are bases for the throttle map and traction control, again not really an issue. I'm more interested in the ability to scale out sensors as well as the tables to refine the boost portion's resolution under load, which is usually more advanced than the average DIY user tends to go, especially in the Mini community on this side of the pond.
As far as adaptations that everyone keeps complaining about, are they referring to LTFT and STFT as well as timing control due to knock suppression? If that's the major points that people have issues with, then really that's a non-issue for me because I've always tuned around those adaptations in my past cars and customer's cars. Even from what I've seen of the factory JCW rom in WinOLS it looks like the torque tables are bases for the throttle map and traction control, again not really an issue. I'm more interested in the ability to scale out sensors as well as the tables to refine the boost portion's resolution under load, which is usually more advanced than the average DIY user tends to go, especially in the Mini community on this side of the pond.
Last edited by slo_crx1; Aug 29, 2016 at 06:13 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Pker
Stock Problems/Issues
29
Apr 11, 2017 12:14 AM