I was asked to start a thread about the differences in ECU mods, sometimes called tunes, chips, flashes, etc.

Hopefully we can keep personalities out of it and simply debate it and/or add to the NAM knowledge base.

I have firsthand (ownership) experience with the Shark, Webb Powerchip, two iterations of the Unichip, JCW, and a Lucky Dog Garage Dimsport Dynapack tune.

I can personally comment on these in detail, and can offer general observations on others that I've driven, observed, etc. I also have friends and acquaintances who have lots of experience in these areas, but with different ECU mod experiences, such as GIAC, MTH, & Apexi.

It seems to be that there are two top tier mods or "tunes" for the R53 ECU.

Both use the Dimsport software. Both rely on a dyno for tuning adjustments.

The first on the scene was the LDG tune. I'm unsure if Emil from Vitesse was doing MINIs then. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But anyway, they both appear to offer similar services. I'll refer to this as a thorough custom tune.

The other top tier "tune" appears to be the Revolution MINI works tune. I'll refer to it as a quick customized flash.

If both of the top ECU tunes use the Dimsport software, what's the difference between a quick customized ECU flash and a thorough custom tune?

Basically, it's the form of delivery. It's pretty likely either vendor could choose to do either. In general, at this point in time, RMW chooses to do group dyno tune days, which by their nature compress multiple tunes into one day.

By contrast LDG chooses to only do tunes at his facility.

The merits of the RMW tune…

Considerably better than any other non-Dimsport tune/mod of which I'm aware.

Truly offers some customization to your car, which is important as our R53s seem to be variable. In our cases, one size does NOT fit all.

Pricing is competitive with lower-performing mods as listed above, yet with significantly higher performance.

RMW may come to an area near you.

The demerits of the RMW tune...

In the same sense that it overcomes the one-size-fits-all flashes of other ECU mods, it cannot address the needs of someone who desires a thorough custom tune. Not because RMW is necessarily unable or unwilling to perform this service. But because the dyno day has too many people waiting, often 6-8. So it's usually 3-4 runs on the dyno per car, perhaps one or two more.

Maybe RMW can give a whole hour's worth of attention, maybe not, as there is a finite time elapsed due to setting up and breaking down each of 6-8 cars on the dyno. The first dyno run is to establish a baseline. The second and subsequent runs are to evaluate the changes introduced from the initial Dimsport flash.

The merits of the LDG tune...

LDG has time to drive the car first to note any particular points that might need to be addressed. He then lashes the car up to the dyno and does a baseline run.

Then he enters his first changes. Another dyno run. More changes, another run.

Based on how it's going he may enter one more set of changes, or go ahead and take the car out for another test drive. Of course this involves disconnecting the car from the dyno, and then reconnecting it.

More testing and more tweaks. Another, more often than not, final test drive. Total dedicated time on the car maybe from 3-5 hours.

One other observation - aggressive air/fuel ratios and timing not only produce impressively high whp numbers, they can also adversely affect reliability. This may be the single most import advantage (to me, maybe not to you) of a thorough custom tune. This aspect takes time to get just right.

The demerits of the LDG tune...

You have to come to LDG.

Price is higher than RMW. Depending on what's involved, it can be slightly higher to a lot higher (LDG won't quit if it can still be improved).

Summary of the two top tier tunes:

The RMW quick customized flash offers value, performance, and travel convenience.

The LDG thorough custom tune offers the highest level of performance, safety, and attention to detail.

 

Oh Boy....
This'll be fun......

 

I’ve had the Shark and Helix/GIAC and would say it is better to skip the rest and go for a Dimsport enabled tune. My perspective is different than hornguys because I have LDG’s shipped ECU tune with torque management improvements. It is a generic program, however, highly effective even though there have been changes in boost, intake, and exhaust components after the original flash. I also desire a dedicated and thorough re-tune, and hopefully that will come about, but for the time being there is a great deal to be had from LDG’s discontinued generic flash. From this experience I would say a cursory tune, intelligently enabled with Dimsport, is better than other flash programs and worth it no matter which of the big three are installing it. Of course only time will tell if RMW tunes blow motors like Coke bottles in the sun, but I highly doubt that happening. I also doubt any of the fortunate South Florida and Dragon MINI folks who had the short LDG tunes are disappointed, so the perspective is relative.

 

Ok ECU experts - here's my problemo:

I have the Dinan S1 with intake, exhaust and stage 5 software. I want a 15% pulley. Should I:

- Get the pulley and accompanying Dinan software (which also tunes for an upgraded fuel pump)?

- Get the pulley and a Dimsport tune?

- Get the pulley and do nothing?

I don't expect someone has the same experience I'm looking for here, but anything will help. I've spoken to people I trust and have gotten quite the range of opinions. Some say keep the ecu as is, some say stick with Dinan, and some say the Dimsport is IT for this car.

In any event, even if we can't shed light on this, thanks for starting this thread. Let's see if it can stay informative...

mb

 

I'm no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express on the way up to LDG..

I also had the JCW flash for awhile, which I forgot to mention.

I'd vote for pulley and whichever Dimsport you can afford.

The Dinan is still pretty much one-size-fits-all.

 

You mention Shark, Webb Powerchip and two iterations of the Unichip but only go into detail on the LDG and RMW tunes (of which you have only seen but not personally experienced the RMW on you Mini). Where are the details in the those tunes?

I've not experienced any tune as of yet, I did purchase an MTH tuner file but never used. In fact tried to give it away to the MM.org group to use a prize for an event but MTH would not allow that, only that it went on the Mini that matched the VIN they have in the tune.

While one size does not fit all one would figure there is a baseline tune for a given set of mods. As the coordinator of the Dallas RMW date I was asked by RMW to provide a listing of mods for each vehicle so a base tune could be started with. That's got to save a significant amount of time when starting off. I'd also like to think that with experience the person behind the computer has a good idea of what is needed from a combination of inputs, including, but not limited to, the list of mods and interviewing the customer to learn the desired goals. With that in mind and my own tuning experiencesw with other vehicles often time the many extra pulls have diminishing returns. Whats the sense of spending 2-3 extra hours on the dyno for very small gains when the ECU being adaptive will adjust with very small gains, or losses, as the customer drives the car.

 

I agree with Gnatster eveything he states makes sense and with the proper prework it will cut down on the actual time needed to provide a 1st class tune in a short amount of time.

Truthfully this post seems more of a advertisement for LDG then anything else but thats just my opinion.

 

I was referring to the "top tunes". The Shark was useless, maybe 2 whp. The worst value by far for $400.

The Webb/Powerchip was pretty good, jumping my whp up to 197 on a Dynojet, from the previous 184 or so. My problem was with my dealer who TWICE reflashed my ECU against my expressed wishes. First time I got it reset with the help of Randy Webb, second time, he had moved on from Powerchip and I couldn't get any help.

So I moved on to the Unichip, which made only about 2-3 whp above the former Webb/Powerchip. But it kept throwing codes. Finally they replaced it. Ran horribly and still threw codes. Then, after beaucoups money in custom tunes by two different authorized Unichip tuners, and still throwing codes, they replaced it with a unit that was supposed to be spot on for my car's mods.

Car didn't throw codes, but stumbled. So I sold it.

In my experience, and probably because I'm so compulsive about timing and afrs for track days, the final time consuming detail is required in getting the max performance but leaving a safe operating area. This cannot be flashed but seems to depend on each car and its mods. Almost needs to be addressed cell-to-cell.

And I prefer that the tuner drive the car before, during and after, rather than doing a quick dyno tune and saying "next".

That's why I set this up as the two best options, both of which are viable, based on interest, convenience, and desire. But that's just my preference. Obviously most don't want to go that far.

 

May I ask why you say that?

 

is ldg using the genius device to flash the ecu with his changes between dyno runs or is he emulating real time?

 

I have a few comments to make and then I am out of here

People for whatever reason have made tuning into some form of "black art".
It's not, regardless of what they tell you to get you to "pay up"

Some vendors have a vested interest in selling you high priced tunes to fatten their wallet. We at RMW are proud to offer low cost solutions to going fast.

Our dyno numbers and track numbers have proven this again. We have yet to see ANY OTHER VENDOR do this except Fireballed racing. (ie drag racing)

For someone who "watches" a tune and concludes it as
"not as good" is just plain biased and uneducated about tuning.

I am committed to helping the Mini community reach their goals for their own personal driving experience.

Now back to your regularly scheduled flaming

 

All I am saying is that I am with Jan on this.

 

I've worked with RMW on a few projects and feel you are misrepresenting the organization with that statement. I also think if you look back at the event you attended and the other RMW Tuning days there may have been a sense of urgency to complete each tune but each customer was treated as an individual and was given as much time as was needed to properly tune their Mini.

Please explain what having the tuner drive the car will bring to the table that cannot be gleaned from interviewing the customer properly about the faults and foibles of their Mini that they are looking to have fixed via the tune. Unless the tuner can take the vehicle on an extended test drive covering various conditions what will be learned from a quick spin around the block. I'd rather not pay someone $100+ hr to drive my car when they can learn the same information from talking to me.

I should add that if someone has no idea of what their car is doing then this type of tune is not for them, IMHO.

 

sorry I am late to the show! this is by far the dumbest thing ever... this post shows exactly how LITTLE people know about Tunes and who is doing what in tuning...

I think I can top the stupidity though... I give you.... the NAM internet expert keyboard...




and unless yer Jan or Hubie... I BOOST MORE THAN YOU! I WIN!

 

Does such a thing even exist?

Funny that you mention them.

 

GREAT point here.

- Matt

 

Don’t go anywhere just yet Jan; I would like to hear your perspective on the ECU’s adaptive abilities, and that is an open ended request. I’ve read some comments that would lead me to believe the depth of the Dimsport changes create a new, stable, set of guidelines that are less likely to revert to their old ways; is that a valid assumption?

 

Dimsport has the ability to and indeed changes more data cells than a normal GIAC type flash. It's a wholesale rewrite instead of tweaking a few parameters. The learning function of the ECU is precisely why a piggyback works only temporarily. The piggyback interupts a certain dataset to make power, but the rest of the ECU will adapt, somewhat nullifying the results. That's why it's funny to see statements like 'OMG, 12hp with unichip on our GP' from some vendors here. Great! Show me a dyno a month and a few tanks of gas later and let's see if the power is still there.

As for the whole LDG vs. RMW thing. Both use Dimsport. Both are talented people. One's local (to me), one's not. I've been to LDG's shop and the old axiom 'Once Bitten, Twice Shy' holds true, as many locals can tell you from their own experiences with John. There's a reason I'm driving right past John's shop on my way to see Jan at Helix....it's called T R U S T. So far, Jan has earned it from me. To put it another way, Jan commands respect....John demands it.

 

TUNE THIS!

 

Very good question??

Hornguy,

We know that RMW charges $350 + Dyno time. What did your LDG tune cost you ? Does LDG charge a flat rate or is there a price difference if it takes 3 hours vs 5 hours. It also appears (to at least me) that allot of the cars getting tuned at LDG end up needing engine work to get a proper tune.

There are other items I would like to talk about but I will hold my tongue for now.

One thing that you did leave out and to me is one of the most important is customer service.

Longboard

 

LDG's price is a moving target. It depends on who you are apparently. That goes for all their work, not just tunes

 

some locals do know

 

That's funny because I'll drive right past philly for tuning purposes because I trust LDG more than RMW (and that says nothing about how much I trust Eric). I gave RMW a shot - no response. Too bad. But look at this conversation degrading to degrees of trust! Looks like you, sir or maam, have fallen into the trap so many of us chide others for falling into - blind brand loyalty. Congrats, what is your term, fanboi?

So I had Don set up my suspension, Eric put on my brakes (among other things) and will have LDG do my tune. I'll probably hit up Helix for the SS kit and pulley install. Whom do I support? It's nice to be objective here.

mb

 

really? When did you call me? I have over 100 emails a day and try to get back to everyone quickly

 

have you actually been to LDG and had John do work for you? I have. Hopefully he treats you better than he did me.

namecalling is for the weak-minded. next.

interesting assessment of my loyalties. For NAM vendors, I've only ever spent money with LDG and MachV/FastMini.net when it comes to actual installs/tuning (ie a non-parts sale). I generally do all wrench work myself, the exception being alignment (Mach V) and taking LDG up on their pulley special (which turned out to be not as cheap as they advertised, but that's a different story because even being screwed, it was cheaper than Helix. Moral = not about money, but about trust with LDG).