If truth be told, I probably do have some bias. I think we all do. However, I was TRYING to keep it level. As evidenced by pointing out the many merits of the RMW tunes.

BTW, I have only been referring to a packed dyno day vs. being the only guy for an entire morning or afternoon.

I'm certain RMW does the latter back home. But all the buzz has been about the dyno days, and I was endeavoring to show that there have to be differences. I did NOT refer to "who has what" or any personalities.

Sorry it didn't come off as well as I'd hoped.

 

the bigger issue as I see it is the dyno type used and nobody has mentioned it. Who's using a load bearing dyno vs. a non-load bearing type? Also, when it comes to tuning the auto transmission cars, how does the dyno load teh torque converter?

 

Here's .02: While I wait patiently for Jan/RMW to come close to my home town in early '08 (Phoenix/Denver most likely, I'd guess), I am impatient enough to try out the new Alta solution with my Unichip. I tried the Webb maps, then the Unichip-US maps, neither of which seem to have done much for my car, at least by the popo dyno. I don't have a price from Alta yet, and haven't sent my 'Chip in, so I can't say if it's just throwing good money after bad (for that consideration it has to cost more than a bottle of wine.) But, any incremental improvement is something I'll pay for. Geez, I'm on the TSW X-brace group buy list, so I'm confirmed mad!!

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe any of the big time, Dimsport using, tuners will do an Auto Tranny.......

I'm waiting and hoping though.......

 

I'm don't understand your assumption that an effective tune cannot be done at a dyno day as opposed to a solo tune session. As for the quality of Jan's work, I don't recall having seen anybody question it except for those with a vested interest in denigrating it.

 

I was thrice burned on the Unichip. But maybe Alta can get it straightened out. I look forward to hearing the results.

 

I must have really written with a fog filter installed. I am NOT denigrating his work. If LDG tried to knock out 8 cars in a day, plus setting up and breaking down every car, I'd say that he couldn't be as thorough as having the time that a tuner will have if he has, say, half a day.

It's not that he needs that much time, but it's best to have it to be thorough. I wish I knew how to say it more clearly without giving offense.

I should also say that, dating back to 1991, I have had numerous custom dyno tunes done on my cars. I had an ElectroMotive ECU installed on my 300HP Turbo Miata in 1991.

Without exception, they all took longer than an hour, and that's not counting the time setting up the car and taking it down.

I'd estimate that I've had about a dozen dyno tunes on different cars over the years. So it's not like I made all this up.

Furthermore, since everyone insists on finding points of argument, let me state AGAIN that Jan seems to be doing a valuable service for the MINI community that can't afford or get to a place where a less time restricted tune can be done.

To keep saying that 30-45 minutes is all that's needed for an exhaustively thorough tune is simply not comparing apples to apples. How about "not pressed for time" vs. "pressed for time"?

 

I have tuned cars in 30 - 45 minutes.. it's not freakin rocket surgery... it's a damn mini.... are talking a MOTEC here... no... it's a factory ecu... gimme a break.... maybe you should just be impressed instead of thinking "it cant be done"...

You want a full 5 hours of "Custom Tuning" I'll be glad to do it.. it's 150 an hr for dyno time and 100 hr for my tuning....

it doesn't take Voodoo, for the most part I can predict what will need to be done based on the mods.. you know why... experience... and Jan has more first hand experience than 90%... I am prolly not too far behind... and I'll tell you what... it's pretty easy... but that's me... and Jan.... and people of the like...

some just get it... It doesn't mean what you like isn't as good... hell some people like Palo Uber stuff... it's crazy expensive.. does that mean it's better? No.. but if you like it go with it... JCW same thing....

 

Hi Hornguy,

I was trying to stay mellow with my questions below. I know how Jan tunes and what he charges. The questions below were to help me understand some things about LDG's tune. I'm not here to flame anyone and I have no problem with this thread.

Could you please help to answer my questions below.

Longboard

 

Once again personalities enter, especially when faced with facts that fly in the face of their limited knowledge.

I know it's limited if you think you can thoroughly tune a car in 30-45 minutes that you haven't seen before and about which you know nothing regarding its individual quirks.

I misjudged you. I thought you were more knowledgeable than you appear to be.

And you cannot have a reasonable discussion without telling us how great you are every time. How you were first, etc. Why is that, anyway?

 

Bingo Tuls! For the type of tuning hornguys appears to be referring to [WOT only], there are only two things that can be altered in the ROM of the stock ECU; ignition and fuel.

Step 1: do a baseline pull to determine AFR and if the car's running into its built-in knock threshold.
Step 2: adjust fuel to desired AFR. This is not art; using E10 [read: most pumps nowadays] you want to run about 11.5:1 on our boosted port-injected engines. Some tuners have an opinion that you want to run significantly leaner and that lack of wisdom should be avoided for your MINI's safety. Now adjust timing until you're as far away from the knock threshold as you desire. This may shock those not in the know, but you actually want a tiny bit of knock. Too much timing and you'll blow apart pistons; too little and you'll have high EGT's while losing more power than necessary. Again, competent tuners know how an engine should run, not have amateur opinions.
Step 3: confirm happiness of those two tables with more dyno pulls; the more the better.
Step 4: tweak part throttle maps. THIS is the hard part as there are much more variables in terms of bolt-on parts and factory tolerances as well as personal preferences. There are guidelines of course; and whether a tuners' arrogance gets in the way of a satisfied customer is entirely up to them at this point. Apart from fuel and timing, there are enrichments and e-gas settings to be mindful of. That said, a good tuner has "90%" settings saved from his past research of MINI configurations that are really close to your own. Final tweaking on the spot on the dyno is not terribly time intensive for the educated and experienced tuner.

Those tuners that do worry more about their bottom line will whine about other parts being "not optimal" [read: subjective opinion rather than workable conditions] than to do the tuning job they were paid for. The end result should be a smoother running and safer-at-the-limit engine setup that makes the customer happy without excuses.

Cheers,
Ryan

 

I doubt Tuls, and the administrators, appreciate your personal attack on him.

For the record: how do you define "thoroughly tune[d]"? Is there a magic answer you're hoping for beyond WOT fuel and timing? Tuning WOT fuel and timing should only take 30-45 minutes unless the tuner is incompetent.

You should understand this is not a group attack against you; the problem it appears to be is you're expecting a certain answer without asking a specific question.

 

I wasn't implying that you were denigrating Jan's tuning, but clearly you are saying that his tunes are inferior based upon time he spends performing them per car. I don't dispute that the more time spent with each car will better help you get the best tune possible, but at a certain point you are chasing such marginal gains that it becomes a point of rapidly diminishing returns.

To your final point I'd say even Jan would not suggest that he can do an "exhaustively thorough tune" in the time frame you suggest, but he can get you 90-95% of the way there. I'd say that is good value for the money and good enough for most applications. After that, it should be apparent that you have to be ready to pay to play. I'm reasonably sure that we are in agreement about that. Where I feel we may disagree is your assumption that a LDG "thorough custom tune" is automatically better than a RMW "quick custom flash" as you have described it (or at least unable to achieve similar results).

 

Just to set the record straight. Jan and I talked about this exact thing the other day. On average his tunes take about 1 to 1 1/2 hours. He can spend more time and will if needed. Like he said before. He will do what it takes to do it right.

In the case of my car with the Rotrex we have spent many hours on the dyno tuning and logging info. Jan figures at least another day or more to make sure it's perfect.

His base maps for the eaton cars are made the same way. Once he knows your mods he simply loads the base map and then tunes from there. It takes allot less time and saves the customer money.

Longboard

 

Longboard, I meant to answer you, but I got, umm, distracted. :impatient

I apologize.

I actually had two visits to LDG.

The first time I had the m7 DFIC, m7 Cosworth head, 16% pulley, 2% crank pulley, 400cc injectors, 2 stages colder plugs, Alta CAI, etc.

The bad news was that my clutch eventually started slipping. So John did the best he could.

He urged me to go to only a 15% pulley, 380cc injectors, one stage colder plugs, remove the 2% crank pulley, go back to stock IC, etc. He didn't try to sell me any of it, he was just advising me.

I think the first visit was a bit over $500. He worked on it about 3 1/2 hours or maybe a bit more. Having seen many other dyno tuners work on my various cars, I though the price was fair. It didn't hurt that he had a thriving busines that was so clean that you could eat your lunch off the floor.

I was frankly embarrassed that I had put all that stuff on my car. But I already did a long thread about that.

I set the car up as he suggested. Also replaced the clutch flywheel with the Exedy Hyper 1 that Tuls (I think) had recommended. I got Juston's (CMC) header. I started to worry that maybe the afrs could be out of whack with all the changes, but especially with the header, as it could shift the tune lean.

So I went back up to LDG. I arrived with a brand new JCW belt, that although it felt fine to me, John could see on the dyno that it was slipping. They replaced it with a Napa xxxx535 (can't remember the first numbers, sorry).

This almost all new tune took almost 3 hours or so, with no stops for lunch or anything.

I think it was $400.

I don't now what John charges these days. Hope I don't need to find out, as my car is running exceptionally well.

 

Boooom, you hit the nail on the head .

Longboard

 

As I mentioned previously, going back to 1991, I've had several cars dyno tuned, had my own engine management system, and watched race cars being tuned by professional engine builders and tuners, as well as race car engines on engine dynos.

It NEVER took just 45 minutes.

My experience is vastly different from yours.

Hopefully we can leave it at that.

 

Wow.. thanks for the insults John and Don have taught you well... that was almost as good as telling me to read a book....

you experience with 1991 technology is neat and all but it's been almost 20 yrs... things ahve changed... and again.. if you wanna talk motoec.. then we can talk about something that takes a few hours...

Try thinking about this since my knowledge that I tried to share was so kindly throwing in my face as "how great I am"

If you have a problem with your neighbor.. It could be you and it could be your neighbor.. if you have a problem with all you neighbors... it's probably you....

your insult was uncalled for and the fact is, most of the time I try to make light of how silly these threads get...

me and my delusional neighbors will now continue to enjoy watching you against the world... thanks for the entertainment..

 

you must be a rocket surgeon! yeah I said surgeon! LOL

 

This is actually so good I must post here again..... just for those that didn't take the time to read it the first time

Well done

 

No problem.

For the time spent it sounds like a fare price. Is this his standard price or is it a moving target? I had read up-wards of $800+ for his tune.

I still have to wonder why allot of the cars that go to LDG have clutch problems. The stock clutch can hold allot more HP then people think and last a long time. I had no problem at 230whp and only changed because I was planning ahead to allot more power.

Longboard

 

Seemingly amongst the few, eh dood!


LOL thanks Jan You've probably figured out by now I like to lay it down how it really goes, no sugar coating.


Longboard: One thing I've noticed about the DynaPack dyno is that it has the capability to be VERY rough on clutches. If you run the dyno in a "floor it, then pull the RPM down, then do the timed pull" setup, you will definitely ruin the clutch prematurely because you're presenting more torque demand from the clutch than will ever happen in the real world, drag strip included. If you operate the dyno in a realistic fashion that the clutch is designed for there will be no problems in terms of dyno vs. real-world.

You're pretty much proving our points here. Times change, interfaces become more streamlined and quicker.

Picture it like this: baseline dyno pull takes 30 seconds max. Reading the AFR plot and ignition and knock data, a few minutes to internalize. Plug in data into easy quick GUI and flash car, 5 minutes max. Wait for car to stabilize temps where they were before takes another minute or two beyond the flashing. Run another dyno pull and confirm changes are good. This may take two or three times to nail it down on a car that had maps significantly off, but seriously, 45 minutes is all it takes for someone not an idiot.

You never did define what you meant by a "thorough tune". Do you mean WOT-only or the full set of maps including enrichments?

Cheers,
Ryan

 

all in one post, you chide someone for having and sharing their opinion and then take it a step lower by insulting them and their knowledge base. Bravo Usually it takes more than a single post to show how little one knows.

Perhaps you ought to read up a bit on what Tuls and Ryephile have done, themselves, and in concert with some of the very people in this thread. I'm no fan of John at LDG, but I can understand why he no longer wants to be a part of NAM. The incessant bickering is comical

We have two ears and one mouth - try using them in that order. Shut up, listen, learn, ask questions. Chances are you might learn something new. I know I do, every day. It's tiresome and deflating to the spirit to browse NAM every day compared to other forums where there's honest, intense, yet cordial debate where the community at large wins from the discussion.

Ask yourself...."am I improving the discussion or taking it the lowest common denominator?" before you post.

 

 

dude....MSPaint rocks!!