Drivetrain Official ALTA™ Q&A thread PART TWO 2nd Generation MINI
yo adam. im gona buy alta cai for my car but i just saw the instruction PDF and it seems that my car is different than the one in the picture.
here are some photos, please tell me if the cai u have online is good for my r56, or is the another version for my car.
Attachment 40782
Attachment 40781
(ps my car was bought in mexico, and i think it is the european version)
here are some photos, please tell me if the cai u have online is good for my r56, or is the another version for my car.
Attachment 40782
Attachment 40781
(ps my car was bought in mexico, and i think it is the european version)
Thanks again!
Got a question for everyone. Just got the Alta turboback exhaust installed and it has a really bad vibration noise when the engine is at 2k rpm's. I'm thinking maybe its because the exhaust is rubbing on the heat shield or something and 2k is where it likes to make noise. I'm going to take it back to the shop Monday and see if they can figure out whats wrong but what does everyone think? Thanks
DWEBBER18....I had the same issue after the install of my turboback. It was the heatshield rubbing against the exhaust...have the shopt check it out. My guy made some very minor modifications to the heat sheild, cut it, bent it back and now no vibrations. One other thing to check is the oem bracket towards the back of the car. We only had about a 1/2 inch clearance here and so trimmed that back a bit as well. Good luck.
Regards,
Mike
Regards,
Mike
I installed my Alta turboback last night and I have a vibration on mine too! I know where its coming from though. That big a$$ resonator rubbing on the heat shield. I tried pushing it up as far as I could last night because I knew it was a tight fit. I had to notch out my M7 heat shield also because the O2 bung was slightly tilted more than the stock one. Whoever thought that 2 piece heat shield up on the down pipe ought to be fired. What pain that was. That's a lot of complaining for one post huh. All in all after all the pain and a long list of cuss words it was worth it. It sounds great! For some reason the blow off is blowing off better now.
Hey guys and gals! Sounds like you all have it figured out!
The heat shields can vary a bit from car to car and of course aren't an issue with the OEM system. Some gentle massaging of the shields always allow enough clearance. If anyone has persistent issues, PLEASE let me or ALTA_Chris know and we will help further!
Thanks again to all for choosing ALTA Performance!
Manufacturer
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
We have had some recent discussions about our R56 downpipe throwing CEL's and while we have put info on our site about them potentially throwing CEL's, we feel it just wasn't getting across to everyone. So here is some info about the Downpipes that should help clear this up.
Alright, comments revolving around the ALTA r56 downpipes are getting a little out of control and I think we need to revisit some of the concerns people have.
Lets start with going back a couple years to 07. We got our R56 and built a catback and a downpipe for it, tested it, PROVED it (which no one else has really done to this day, except us on multiple occasions) then brought it to market. We had great success being the first with a 3” exhaust and great success with the HP and gains it made.
Our cat we used in our initial test is an off the shelf metallic converter. This worked very well on our car for a long time, but for production we decided to go with a special version of the cat that had about 2 times the amount of catalyst loaded on the core. This ensures that the cat will last longer than normal. This also adds huge cost to part, but we felt was worth it to ensure the cat lasted as long as possible.
Beginning of last year we started seeing CEL problems and started trying to figure it out. The obvious thing was the cat. There were customers we sent replacements out to, and it it only solved the problem for a week or so. We even had a customer we sent a couple to with no success. In sending these to him he found the hanger had cracked and was causing an exhaust leak. We thought this could be the problem. But after fixing this, it still got a PO420 code. We even had a couple of locals we did the same thing for hoping this would solve the CEL. After this, we decided to stop selling the downpipe completely until the problems were resolved. We sent off a few parts to the cat manufacturer (Carsound) to be tested. After weeks and weeks and weeks (some of you may remember this) they came back with their cat was ok.
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code. It seemed like Mini narrowed up the parameters that say when the cat goes bad. At the time we had a mid year 08 R56 (one of 7 we have owned over the last 2 years) with the CEL problem and we tested an 02 sensor extender on it. We tried one then 2 and the CEL went away. So we offered this to a few customers with about 50% success rate. Later on as we had a few more R56’s we had the CEL problem no matter what we did.
Knowing that we have an ECU reflash on the way that WILL fix this problem, we decided to start selling the downpipe again (about a 4-5 month of downtime). We offered to customers with the CEL problems a large discount on this future product knowing it would get rid of the CEL, a return on the downpipe or the 02 sensor extenders. We thought this was an acceptable offer (as well as nearly every customer), and because the PO420 code doesn’t effect performance or warranty on the car, there was no concern driving around with it.
That along with a very important note on our site (basically saying your ALTA R56 DP will throw a CEL), we felt comfortable selling the part again. Because of the way we were selling it (telling people it will throw a CEL no matter what) we were also accepting of the fact, we would be selling a lot less. But not a big deal as eventually the ECU reflash product would be out and sales would pick back up.
So where we are today is that people are either forgetting that the ALTA DP will throw a CEL at some point, or we have started slipping with how we are selling the part. Really is us not being super proactive about how its sold. To help that out, we moved the special note about our DP throwing a CEL to the front page on the DP. This along with our customer service reps being reeducated on the CEL problem, I think we have solved the problem as best we can.
HOW CAN WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM!
I know some are thinking ALTA can solve the problem by looking at other people’s downpipes and figuring out why theirs doesn’t throw CEL’s. Its not a mystery why some systems are CEL free. There are 2 big factors that we could change to fix it, but we feel its not worth it. The first and easiest is to change the cat to a ceramic type cat. The “brick” in these cats have more Cells per inch, which means they clean the exhaust better, but also are much more restrictive. Or a different more restrictive side by side dual cat system. The problem with a dual cat system (like some make), is aligning the top and bottom cat so the cells in each “brick” line up. If they are even slightly rotated you just created even more restriction, which is bad for performance, but good for a no CEL situation. I can guarantee the twin cats are not lined up as this would be almost impossible to do.
The second factor is tubing size. WE could make the entire downpipe in 2.5” tubing which will also help with the CEL. But again, restriction. Our downpipe makes the HP it does, with the cat it has. We have proven this over and over again to be in the neighborhood of about 12WHP on a car with our 3” catback already installed. So lets say we add the more restrictive cat (weather ceramic or dual cat), that 12WHP could now be cut down 25%. Then lets say we step down to 2.5” tubing, and this is going to drop another 25% or more. While these are just educated guesses they are pretty reasonable. Now our downpipe would perform like others and make somewhere in the 5WHP range. Then is becomes a simple matter $/HP. For between $700-$800 dollars you get a part that makes maybe 5HP??? And is a complete PITA to install!
I’ll even throw out there that the 12WHP is with the front piece and rear piece together. IF both of those make 12WHP how much of that is actually from the front section……..
This is why we choose to keep DP the way it is. It makes decent Wheel HP, you can easily feel the difference with your butt dyno, and with our CEL warning in place, the customer can decide weather or not its worth the proven 12WHP. If the customer is concerned about the CEL, then we suggest to stick with the OEM downpipe and do just our catback exhaust.
Remember our downpipe results are with a 3” catback in place, not by them selves. If we made a DP that fit in place of the OEM DP, its not going to make even 12WHP it will be less by quite a bit. In the end, I may be killing some of the sales of the part (until our ECU flash is done) but we want to show we are not trying to pull a fast one on customers, or hide the fact our DP throws a CEL. It does, and there isn’t much we can reasonably do with out making the part even more expensive, or make it more restrictive and make less HP.
We felt it was needed to help clear up the ALTA DP concerns and also needed to re-educate customers about the ALTA DP and the fact it most likely will throw a CEL. If anyone has questions, give us a ring or email or IM or stop on by.
Alright, comments revolving around the ALTA r56 downpipes are getting a little out of control and I think we need to revisit some of the concerns people have.
Lets start with going back a couple years to 07. We got our R56 and built a catback and a downpipe for it, tested it, PROVED it (which no one else has really done to this day, except us on multiple occasions) then brought it to market. We had great success being the first with a 3” exhaust and great success with the HP and gains it made.
Our cat we used in our initial test is an off the shelf metallic converter. This worked very well on our car for a long time, but for production we decided to go with a special version of the cat that had about 2 times the amount of catalyst loaded on the core. This ensures that the cat will last longer than normal. This also adds huge cost to part, but we felt was worth it to ensure the cat lasted as long as possible.
Beginning of last year we started seeing CEL problems and started trying to figure it out. The obvious thing was the cat. There were customers we sent replacements out to, and it it only solved the problem for a week or so. We even had a customer we sent a couple to with no success. In sending these to him he found the hanger had cracked and was causing an exhaust leak. We thought this could be the problem. But after fixing this, it still got a PO420 code. We even had a couple of locals we did the same thing for hoping this would solve the CEL. After this, we decided to stop selling the downpipe completely until the problems were resolved. We sent off a few parts to the cat manufacturer (Carsound) to be tested. After weeks and weeks and weeks (some of you may remember this) they came back with their cat was ok.
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code. It seemed like Mini narrowed up the parameters that say when the cat goes bad. At the time we had a mid year 08 R56 (one of 7 we have owned over the last 2 years) with the CEL problem and we tested an 02 sensor extender on it. We tried one then 2 and the CEL went away. So we offered this to a few customers with about 50% success rate. Later on as we had a few more R56’s we had the CEL problem no matter what we did.
Knowing that we have an ECU reflash on the way that WILL fix this problem, we decided to start selling the downpipe again (about a 4-5 month of downtime). We offered to customers with the CEL problems a large discount on this future product knowing it would get rid of the CEL, a return on the downpipe or the 02 sensor extenders. We thought this was an acceptable offer (as well as nearly every customer), and because the PO420 code doesn’t effect performance or warranty on the car, there was no concern driving around with it.
That along with a very important note on our site (basically saying your ALTA R56 DP will throw a CEL), we felt comfortable selling the part again. Because of the way we were selling it (telling people it will throw a CEL no matter what) we were also accepting of the fact, we would be selling a lot less. But not a big deal as eventually the ECU reflash product would be out and sales would pick back up.
So where we are today is that people are either forgetting that the ALTA DP will throw a CEL at some point, or we have started slipping with how we are selling the part. Really is us not being super proactive about how its sold. To help that out, we moved the special note about our DP throwing a CEL to the front page on the DP. This along with our customer service reps being reeducated on the CEL problem, I think we have solved the problem as best we can.
HOW CAN WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM!
I know some are thinking ALTA can solve the problem by looking at other people’s downpipes and figuring out why theirs doesn’t throw CEL’s. Its not a mystery why some systems are CEL free. There are 2 big factors that we could change to fix it, but we feel its not worth it. The first and easiest is to change the cat to a ceramic type cat. The “brick” in these cats have more Cells per inch, which means they clean the exhaust better, but also are much more restrictive. Or a different more restrictive side by side dual cat system. The problem with a dual cat system (like some make), is aligning the top and bottom cat so the cells in each “brick” line up. If they are even slightly rotated you just created even more restriction, which is bad for performance, but good for a no CEL situation. I can guarantee the twin cats are not lined up as this would be almost impossible to do.
The second factor is tubing size. WE could make the entire downpipe in 2.5” tubing which will also help with the CEL. But again, restriction. Our downpipe makes the HP it does, with the cat it has. We have proven this over and over again to be in the neighborhood of about 12WHP on a car with our 3” catback already installed. So lets say we add the more restrictive cat (weather ceramic or dual cat), that 12WHP could now be cut down 25%. Then lets say we step down to 2.5” tubing, and this is going to drop another 25% or more. While these are just educated guesses they are pretty reasonable. Now our downpipe would perform like others and make somewhere in the 5WHP range. Then is becomes a simple matter $/HP. For between $700-$800 dollars you get a part that makes maybe 5HP??? And is a complete PITA to install!
I’ll even throw out there that the 12WHP is with the front piece and rear piece together. IF both of those make 12WHP how much of that is actually from the front section……..
This is why we choose to keep DP the way it is. It makes decent Wheel HP, you can easily feel the difference with your butt dyno, and with our CEL warning in place, the customer can decide weather or not its worth the proven 12WHP. If the customer is concerned about the CEL, then we suggest to stick with the OEM downpipe and do just our catback exhaust.
Remember our downpipe results are with a 3” catback in place, not by them selves. If we made a DP that fit in place of the OEM DP, its not going to make even 12WHP it will be less by quite a bit. In the end, I may be killing some of the sales of the part (until our ECU flash is done) but we want to show we are not trying to pull a fast one on customers, or hide the fact our DP throws a CEL. It does, and there isn’t much we can reasonably do with out making the part even more expensive, or make it more restrictive and make less HP.
We felt it was needed to help clear up the ALTA DP concerns and also needed to re-educate customers about the ALTA DP and the fact it most likely will throw a CEL. If anyone has questions, give us a ring or email or IM or stop on by.
My Alta DP
Jeff,
First - the power and sound that results from your down pipe made me a happy customer.
Second - your story is exactly the message I received before and after my DP purchase. You and your staff have been very clear and helpful on the CEL issue, and when the spacers eliminated the majority, but not all of my CELs, you pledged to sell me the ECU re-flash at a significant discount to fully eliminate the CEL issue. This is great service, reinforcing that I was a happy customer.
Third - I had a rattle/buzz sound in my exhaust and contacted Adam about a warranty return, the answer was, without, hesitation - absolutely! When I pulled the resonator I found a small piece of extra material (looked like stuck welding rod) that was the noise culprit. Removed it and the buzz was gone. No return required, but again the service response was excellent and ensures that I'll be a continuing customer.
Last - I like your DP's performance and sound as is (I bought it for these reasons). I like your solution(s), they are reasonable. I appreciate that you stand by your products, your participation in these discussions and every experience with Adam, yourself, and your entire staff demonstrates that Alta is a class act - don't change.
First - the power and sound that results from your down pipe made me a happy customer.
Second - your story is exactly the message I received before and after my DP purchase. You and your staff have been very clear and helpful on the CEL issue, and when the spacers eliminated the majority, but not all of my CELs, you pledged to sell me the ECU re-flash at a significant discount to fully eliminate the CEL issue. This is great service, reinforcing that I was a happy customer.
Third - I had a rattle/buzz sound in my exhaust and contacted Adam about a warranty return, the answer was, without, hesitation - absolutely! When I pulled the resonator I found a small piece of extra material (looked like stuck welding rod) that was the noise culprit. Removed it and the buzz was gone. No return required, but again the service response was excellent and ensures that I'll be a continuing customer.
Last - I like your DP's performance and sound as is (I bought it for these reasons). I like your solution(s), they are reasonable. I appreciate that you stand by your products, your participation in these discussions and every experience with Adam, yourself, and your entire staff demonstrates that Alta is a class act - don't change.
Jeff,
First - the power and sound that results from your down pipe made me a happy customer.
Second - your story is exactly the message I received before and after my DP purchase. You and your staff have been very clear and helpful on the CEL issue, and when the spacers eliminated the majority, but not all of my CELs, you pledged to sell me the ECU re-flash at a significant discount to fully eliminate the CEL issue. This is great service, reinforcing that I was a happy customer.
Third - I had a rattle/buzz sound in my exhaust and contacted Adam about a warranty return, the answer was, without, hesitation - absolutely! When I pulled the resonator I found a small piece of extra material (looked like stuck welding rod) that was the noise culprit. Removed it and the buzz was gone. No return required, but again the service response was excellent and ensures that I'll be a continuing customer.
Last - I like your DP's performance and sound as is (I bought it for these reasons). I like your solution(s), they are reasonable. I appreciate that you stand by your products, your participation in these discussions and every experience with Adam, yourself, and your entire staff demonstrates that Alta is a class act - don't change.
First - the power and sound that results from your down pipe made me a happy customer.
Second - your story is exactly the message I received before and after my DP purchase. You and your staff have been very clear and helpful on the CEL issue, and when the spacers eliminated the majority, but not all of my CELs, you pledged to sell me the ECU re-flash at a significant discount to fully eliminate the CEL issue. This is great service, reinforcing that I was a happy customer.
Third - I had a rattle/buzz sound in my exhaust and contacted Adam about a warranty return, the answer was, without, hesitation - absolutely! When I pulled the resonator I found a small piece of extra material (looked like stuck welding rod) that was the noise culprit. Removed it and the buzz was gone. No return required, but again the service response was excellent and ensures that I'll be a continuing customer.
Last - I like your DP's performance and sound as is (I bought it for these reasons). I like your solution(s), they are reasonable. I appreciate that you stand by your products, your participation in these discussions and every experience with Adam, yourself, and your entire staff demonstrates that Alta is a class act - don't change.
Neutral
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Hi, I purchased Alta Blow Off Valve about a year ago. At that time, Alta did not have Boost Port. I installed the BOV and the engine light's on. I broght the Mini S R56 to the dealer ship to do the maintainance and they went through the dianoses. What they said was that I had air leak from the part that I installed. So what should I do to stop the air leak from the BOV ?
Hi, I purchased Alta Blow Off Valve about a year ago. At that time, Alta did not have Boost Port. I installed the BOV and the engine light's on. I broght the Mini S R56 to the dealer ship to do the maintainance and they went through the dianoses. What they said was that I had air leak from the part that I installed. So what should I do to stop the air leak from the BOV ?
Likely the cap might need to be tightened a bit, but again lets get the tech guys on the phone.
Thanks again!
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 310
Likes: 3
From: Mililani, HI
Adam,
I've been speaking to Jeff and reading some threads, and have decided to get your PWI-2 Water/Meth injection kit, and I have a few questions.
1. I haven't seen or been able to find any pictures on mounting this. I saw the pictures you guys had for the R53, but that's not very useful. So... where's a good place to put the pump?
2. A tank.... the pictures of the R53 show the use of the windshield wiper fluid tank in the a-panel. How big of a tank should I get, where should I put it. Will it affect anything if it runs from the boot?
3. What type of data logs will need to be taken to tune my car properly? Straight highway driving? Hard acceleration? 0-60mph?
4. Would it be better to mount at the end of the factory plastic tube running in to the cold side boost tube, or in to the boost tube itself (I have a hard pipe)?
I've been speaking to Jeff and reading some threads, and have decided to get your PWI-2 Water/Meth injection kit, and I have a few questions.
1. I haven't seen or been able to find any pictures on mounting this. I saw the pictures you guys had for the R53, but that's not very useful. So... where's a good place to put the pump?
2. A tank.... the pictures of the R53 show the use of the windshield wiper fluid tank in the a-panel. How big of a tank should I get, where should I put it. Will it affect anything if it runs from the boot?
3. What type of data logs will need to be taken to tune my car properly? Straight highway driving? Hard acceleration? 0-60mph?
4. Would it be better to mount at the end of the factory plastic tube running in to the cold side boost tube, or in to the boost tube itself (I have a hard pipe)?
Former Vendor
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 660
Likes: 1
From: Hillsboro, OR
Scooter,
Sorry, we don't have any pictures of installs on the R56, but good places are on the firewall or behind the front bumper.
We have used the windshield washer tank in the R56 in the past and it's worked great, just like on the R53. If you wanted to purchase a tank and install it in the boot, a 1 gallon tank will be plenty of fluid to last you a few weeks. Installing the tank in the boot will be fine.
Logs from 2,000 - redline in 3rd gear will be what we need to help make a map for you. We may need others, we'll let you know when it comes to that.
It doesn't matter exactly where to mount the nozzle. Either one of those options are fine.
Sorry, we don't have any pictures of installs on the R56, but good places are on the firewall or behind the front bumper.
We have used the windshield washer tank in the R56 in the past and it's worked great, just like on the R53. If you wanted to purchase a tank and install it in the boot, a 1 gallon tank will be plenty of fluid to last you a few weeks. Installing the tank in the boot will be fine.
Logs from 2,000 - redline in 3rd gear will be what we need to help make a map for you. We may need others, we'll let you know when it comes to that.
It doesn't matter exactly where to mount the nozzle. Either one of those options are fine.
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 310
Likes: 3
From: Mililani, HI
Thumper, do you have more pictures of your water/meth setup?
No thats not mine....
I should have mine by this weekend, and will do a full thread on it with pics
I should have mine by this weekend, and will do a full thread on it with pics
The water/meth system sounds like a smart editon when using the Alta AP due to the higher boost pressures and temperatures combined with the R56's propensity for carbon buildup. Is my thinking on track with that? I'm leaning towards getting one but it's something I'm just learning about so I want to be sure it actually helps. Would it be a better option than a simple catch can or should they work together?
Looking forward to it Thumper!
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
From: New York, New York
In regards to Accessport tunes:
With, for example, stage 2 and 3 maps, there is a drastic boost spike (about 18psi) in the the 3-4k rpm range. After that, boost pressure tapers off into the 13-14psi range. Could you please give the technical reasoning for this type of concave curve? Why isn't it more linear?
With, for example, stage 2 and 3 maps, there is a drastic boost spike (about 18psi) in the the 3-4k rpm range. After that, boost pressure tapers off into the 13-14psi range. Could you please give the technical reasoning for this type of concave curve? Why isn't it more linear?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,821
Likes: 1
From: Mililani,Hawaii
In regards to Accessport tunes:
With, for example, stage 2 and 3 maps, there is a drastic boost spike (about 18psi) in the the 3-4k rpm range. After that, boost pressure tapers off into the 13-14psi range. Could you please give the technical reasoning for this type of concave curve? Why isn't it more linear?
With, for example, stage 2 and 3 maps, there is a drastic boost spike (about 18psi) in the the 3-4k rpm range. After that, boost pressure tapers off into the 13-14psi range. Could you please give the technical reasoning for this type of concave curve? Why isn't it more linear?
That's strange. I'd expect it to hit 20-21.
Former Vendor
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 660
Likes: 1
From: Hillsboro, OR
Tintman,
That feature is built into all Mini tunes from the factory as an "overboost function." What the car does basically is ignore the amount of boost for a few seconds, then come in to control boost. Naturally the boost will lower at higher RPM because of the size of the turbo.
That feature is built into all Mini tunes from the factory as an "overboost function." What the car does basically is ignore the amount of boost for a few seconds, then come in to control boost. Naturally the boost will lower at higher RPM because of the size of the turbo.
Former Vendor
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 660
Likes: 1
From: Hillsboro, OR
The factory tune overboosts when you are at a lower RPM and floor it, then a split second later, lowers the boost. On a stock tune, you will actually see that the boost level fluctuates. Our map is programmed so when you floor it goes to a higher boost, and stays there. The boost level for sure can be changed with a custom tune.
I've always never understood the logic behind that overboost feature. I can get my R56 to overboost all the time, but it shouldn't be like a puzzle to open up that can of worms. On the track this is especially illogical since abrupt throttling affects carstability. Congrats on getting rid of it
Former Vendor
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 660
Likes: 1
From: Hillsboro, OR
There's a lot of steps in cracking the ECU, verifying the new tables, then we're going to have to make all new maps on the dyno. I'm not sure exactly where they are, but it is getting worked on.