Question for the Detailing Gawds..

I'm reading some guy in a different car forum that's going on about how Dawn is a bad idea for removing old wax in prep for polishing, because Dawn "strips away the clear coat's natural oils". He also is saying that clay bar won't remove wax "unless you trapped stuff in the wax" and recommends not re-waxing after claying because of this reason.

I know that there are specialized prep products (car wash shampoos) that are specifically designed to remove old, contaminated wax in the wash step, but I've never heard of clear coat (which is, from what I've heard, basically clear paint) containing "oils". Carnuba wax is a natural oil, but that's applied on TOP of the paint.

Does this guy know something that I don't? Seems like what he's saying goes somewhat contrary to what I've learned in here, but God knows I still have a lot to learn.

Thanks in advance!

 

i was about to post but remembered im not a detailing god status yet, so will let Octaneguy answer that.

but, my personal opinion is, whoever posted that had too much to drink last night. lol

 

Yep - there's no oils, natural or otherwise, in a clearcoat. Any kind of oil would lead to horrible fisheye problems when applying the paint.

There's nothing in Dawn dishwashing detergent that will harm paint with occasional use.

He is correct that claybar will not remove wax, though. It will remove surface impurities, but if the wax layer is smooth and clean, the claybar will not remove it. I just clayed my Mercedes the other day, and the water was still beading afterwards, as if I had just waxed it. Of course, I put on another layer anyway, since I had just clayed the paint and everything was perfectly smooth and clean.

Scott

 

you may not remove the wax completely, but you will remove a significant
amount. what you got there is wax that have partially lifted from the
paint and re-attached to the paint.

depending on what mist you use, the detailer spray itself contains wax.

regardless, this is why you want to remove the wax first, then use clay
so that your clay can concentrate on the leftover hard to remove
grime. maximize its efficiency.

 

That's always what I heard as well... I Dawned my car and then clay barred it, and the surface practically felt waxed, it was so smooth - maybe that's what you felt, Riquiscott?

 

Hah. He must be confused. You can use dish soap, but be careful not to use those that include extra oils or chemicals for your hands, which might spread on the car.
Otherwise, you should be using leather conditioner on your clearcoat!

 

I've heard that you should not use dawn too often because it can dry out the plastic trim parts and the weatherstripping.

 

I heard that too, but I always use plastic trim protectant anyway, so that shouldn't be an issue...

 

I agree completely with Scott... almost. Others have also chimed in with similar info... all of which I agree with too (regarding oils in the paint and the safety of Dawn, etc).

The only part I'd differ on just a wee tad is the clay-wax issue. I agree with Scott to some degree. But I would argue that the most accurate answer is really it depends! In most cases that we've seen, claying, at the least, wears the wax down and often removes it. It really depends alot on how badly the paint needs to be clayed (read: how much gunk is on/in it) and how durable the wax is. At the same time, it is possible that it won't remove the wax (or a just small unnoticable amount).

We always assume that claying removes wax- to be on the safe side. It's likely, though not for sure, it is doing so to at least some degree and maybe completely.

That's my 2-cents.

-Heather

 

So, Heather, would you agree that the "best practice" would be to wash the car with either "classic" (blue) Dawn or a car shampoo specifically formulated to strip old wax and THEN clay bar? Sounds like that would offer the cleanest process and would allow the detailer to start with a fresh, unblemished/uncontaminated surface to polish or wax...

 

^ that's wat i would do. except, i don't use Dawn. (i use paintprep)

i don't like to smear wax that i removed or partially removed back on
the paint after claying as the towel starts to fill up with wax after
several wiping. you can definitely tell as you will streak your window
if you kind of test it on your glass.

 

Yep... I've heard that clay will remove wax, but it it possible for it to readhere, I guess.

I usually do a dawn wash (the old classic blue stuff), followed by a rinse of the car and the wash bucket/mitt. I then mix up a 2-3 times stronger than usual bucket of wash water with a good auto detergent and use that to lube body panels for claying and for an immediate wash after finishing each panel.

I've also heard that Dawn isn't good in regular use on plastic body panels and parts. I painted or replaced most of mine and I keep a good coat of protectant on the remaining bits, so I don't worry about a Dawn wash 2 or 3 times a year.

On a side note: I just washed my wife's new Caddilac STS. That thing is HUGE and the clearcoat is very, very soft. I'm going to have to control my swirl-mark OCD on this one or treat it with kidd gloves...

 

I always heard that dish soap was harmful to the paints finish.

Here is a link to a site that has very good information on auto detailing:
http://www.goodspeedmotoring.com/?page=detailing

 

Well, everything I'm seeing says to not use dish soap because it removes any wax you have... But, if you're wanting to do a clay barring or polish, then isn't it DESIRABLE to strip the old, contaminated wax, thereby exposing the raw clearcoat? For everyday washing, yes I can see why you'd not want to strip the wax (re-applying after a wash would be extremely time consuming).

I think what we're seeing here (as often happens in the Detailing forum) is a matter of confusion as to what precisely is being accomplished. For everyday washing of waxed cars, a car shampoo is the best thing because it does NOT strip off wax or damage trim peices, and for those times when you want to physically polish or clay the clear coat, then use Dawn or Paint Prep (mentioned by Kenchan - can you send a link, bro?) to remove all traces of wax prior to the cleaning step.

 

Is this the same Paint Prep solvent that auto body shops use before painting? That seems like some pretty hard-core stuff to use just before waxing/polishing/sealing.

 

There is a variety of paint prep solutions on the market. The stuff I use is from House of Kolor. They have KC-10, which probably *would* be too harsh to use just to clean paint. It's more for bare metal prep.

They also have KC-20, which they call a "post-sanding cleaner". It's mild enough to use on basecoats or topcoats.

Lots of companies make a "paint prep" product. They may also call it a "wax/grease/silicone remover".

Scott

 

here you go! it's by Griots.

http://www.griotsgarage.com/search.j...=15&search.y=4

 

I haven't used Griot's Paint Prep yet, because I'm still finishing off my House of Kolor KC-20, but I will say that if you're interested in getting into detailing, you could do a lot worse than checking out the Griot's products. I've actually bought gallon jugs of their:

Speedshine Quick detailer
Engine Cleaner
Rubber Cleaner
Interior Cleaner
Rubber/Vinyl Dressing
Wheel Cleaner
& Car Wash

With some of Griot's other products, I haven't found them any more effective than anyone else's. This includes their Glass Cleaner, Chrome Cleaner, Plastic Polish and Claybar. Still good products, but not good enough to make me quit what I'm already using.

Plus, their prices are good, their customer service is great, and they have fast shipping. Hard to go wrong with just about anything they sell.

Scott

 

^^ yeh, some of those Griots stuff is amazing (like SpeedShine,
SprayOn wax), but some aren't.

but I like their WindowCleaner because it has barely any scent and
easy to use.

Im thinking about trying their long lasting tire sauce when im out of
wat im currently using.

 

Kenchan, what's your process for usng that Paint Prep product? Since it comes in a spray bottle, do you wash with car shampoo and them spray on/wipe off the paint prep solution afterwards? I was imagining something that you mixed in a bucket of water and used in the wash step...

Thanks!

 

after rinsing the car, i have the PaintPrep in my left hand and a
spray bottle filled with just water in my right hand and play gunslinger.
all over the painted surface.

Then, i take a soft terry (or MF) and spread the mixture while spraying
more water onto it just keeping it damp for about 2 min.

Then I rinse with water again with a hose and im done.

 

I keep having streaking problems with their window cleaner - that's why I didn't get the gallon jug and I'm just waiting to finish off the 32oz bottle of it. For **non-tinted** windows, I still haven't found anything I like better than good old Windex.

I do like Griot's Vinyl and rubber dressing for the tires, though. It's not too shiny, doesn't fling off, and lasts a long time. I got their contoured tire dressing applicator, and it puts on such an even coat and uses so little dressing that the gallon bottle I bought is probably a lifetime supply now!

Scott

 

Indeed! Confusion is spinning here, but I think we can fix it. ImagoX already summed up most of it, but I'll take a stab here too in case there is still confusion. Here is some very general advice:

When you are planning your annual or semi-annual day of thorough cleansing/waxing/etc, this is the common (and suggested) paint care procedure, in general:

Dawn wash
Clay
Paint cleanse (w/ a "paint cleanser" or non-abrasive polish)
Polish (maybe)
Wax

When you are planning a general day of thorough cleansing/waxing/etc, this is the common (and suggested) paint care procedure, in general:


Wash (w/ any car soap)
Clay (depending on condition of paint)
Paint cleanse
Wax

When you are just washing (no clay, wax, etc), this is the common (and suggested) paint care procedure, in general:

Wash with any non-Dawn car wash soap

Notes on the above:
The purpose of a Dawn wash is to intentionally strip the paint of any oils (from other products or the road, etc), light environmental gunk, old wax, etc. That way you have a clean slate to work on. All of the other steps will work best when done to paint with nothing on it. However, understand that even dawn is not likely to remove a synthetic wax which has been applied recently. It will wear it down a bit, but likely not remove it. Of course, all that also depends on the durability of the synthetic wax you're using. Ultimately, a Dawn wash has its place in detailing and is very safe to use as long as it is infrequent. Let Scott said originally, "There's nothing in Dawn dishwashing detergent that will harm paint with occasional use."


It is not recommended to use Dawn as your regular wash because
1) It will strip all or much of the wax you worked so hard to apply, and
2) It can be harsh on your paint when used frequently (ie, every week or so... eeks! ).

FYI: Dawn is often specifically referenced instead of "dish soap" because, as someone else already mentioned, it is one of the very few dish soaps left in the world that doesn't contain hand-softening agents and other oily gunk that you're trying to get off.

Paint cleansers (aka non-abrasive polishes) do some of the same things as a Dawn wash (removal of product/road oils, sticky environmental gunk, etc) but much more safely. Most paint cleansers can remove wax (natural and synthetic) as well. Paint cleansers are the safest way to prep your paint for just about anything.

Regarding paint prep sprays: Most experts agree that it is perfectly safe to use these chemicals on the paint on occasion. (see note about the pro versions though...). Again, and like Dawn, they are not something you want to do to the paint once a week, but there isn't a need for that much frequency anyway! They too have their place- they do a great job of removing old wax (natural and synthetic), as well as fillers/concealers (for example, while you're polishing with a product that contains fillers/concealers it's good to use these sprays to "unfill" and check your work... that's a different topic though).

Note about professional paint prep sprays: There are some which are fairly harsh and aren't advised for the hobbyist detailer. Riquiscott already mentioned a few and how they can differ in their harshness. I would say you can be quite confident with any product from any good car care retailer (Griot's, Autopia, Detailers Paradise, etc, etc) but you should use caution with products from paint supply stores, etc. They may be overkill and too harsh for hobbyist use, even infrequently.


Part of the confusion in all of this come from the fact that there are many variables in these processes. In my opinion, when in doubt about any of the above stuff, call or email any one of the high quality retailers directly and ask them what is best for your specific situation. Customized advice is the best way to go. Of course, I'm being fair to the other retailers by mentioning them above (and because they do have good customer service) but I'm biased towards my own company. We pride ourselves in one-on-one "tech" support. I really do believe that forums can be an excellent source of tons of detailing info; but I've found that most people need customized advice when they get started, and sometimes along the way too. I talk to frequent fliers of forums like this one everyday and all too often they are very confused!

Hope I didn't add to the confusion... lots of topics intertwined in this thread!

-Heather

 

hummm.... i just use some bounty paper towels to do the WindowCleaner...
one wet, one dry... I don't get any streaking. Windex
works fine, but that scent makes me get a headache... especially the
ones with AmmoniaD.

i have their tire sauce applicator too... imho, the thing is too big for
my low profile tires. like even on my wife's Legacy (205/50/17) the
applicator is too huge. works fine on my Civic's tires (205/55/16).

 

Plus, Windex will damage tinted windows (ammonia dissolves tinting glue). I prefer straight old Windex since I don't have tinted windows, but if you paid for a tint job ONLY use a water-based window solution...